Japan Set Development

[Toni Babelony]

1. Running costs. Running costs for all train are far too low. I don't have that much of a problem with it on normal locos and EMU as it allows easy multiheading and the trains will still be profitable, but my first Shinkansen costs me something like 2000 USD a year in running costs, which is just too low in my opinion.

Shinkansen run on a weekly service check. Tracks are tested every night, so don't expect the costs to be low at all! Methinks the running costs of the Shinkansen should be tripled at least!

2. Shinkansen tracks are very obvious missing the catenary. I know that the third rail type is not supporting catenary and it requires a patch feature for it. And what I would really like is that the Shinkansen are able to run on normal electrified tracks as well, so you could at least let them use the same stations.

Shinkansen run on 1435mm rail and conventional Japanese trains on 'Cape-gauge' (1064mm?) So they're NOT compatible with eachother at all. Maximum speed on conventional lines: 120km/h (exeptions to 140/160km/h are very rare), maximum speed on Shinkansen: 300km/h... Also a big difference ey?
NOTE: a few lines have been re-gauged to 1435 so a mini-Shinkansen could run on it. These lines are: Yamagata-Shinkansen & Akita-Shinkansen. Local services are ran by modified AC EMU (701-class)

3. My game is currently in 1978 and so far I never had a problem with finding suitable engines for my trains. But right now, I do have a problem, I'm missing a fast powerfull diesel locomotive for loco-hauled passenger express trains. My C62 are coming to the end of their livespan and I have nothing but a KIHA66 to replace them and somehow, I don't wanna use KIHA DMUs to run express services.
I don't know anything about Japanese trains, so maybe there really isn't any such locomotive in real live. But somehow, I don't want to electrify 95% percent of my network, just to be able to replace my old steamers with electrics..

Diesel freight services are run by DD51 locomotives. In Hokkaido these are ran by DD200 "Red Bear" series. If more power is needed the DD51 run in double traction. All heavy regular freigh is powered by electrics... So there is little choice.

[Edit:] Just three more things.
1. it seams that from 1975 (Kiha DMU 66) until 1987 (Romance 10000) there is no new train what so ever. Can that be trough?
2. the Japanese Set should disactivate any other trainset loaded. I'm also having activated MB's old CargoSet (for the RVs), and I'm getting all those Freightcars from it, which I don't really need.
3. I think the heavy load carrier (SHIKI 810) should be able to carry steel. I dunno what this thing is used for IRL, but I think ingame it would be great to carry around big chunks of steel.

1. Not until the 80's new trains were designed. This is beacause Japan suffered greatly from the oil-depression in the 70's... *EDIT: There were some actually, I'm actually trying to fill this gap...
2. Dunno...
3. SHIKI 800 is actually only designed to carry transformers or other special heavy loads. Usually runs in this formation: "Engine - SHIKI 810 - Caboose" and that's it... I know other combination other than that.

I hope this helps. ^_^

[michael blunck]

@The Irish
> 2. the Japanese Set should disactivate any other trainset loaded.

No. Vice versa, it should de-activate itself in case it finds any incompatibility. That´s common practice.

> I'm also having activated MB's old CargoSet (for the RVs), and I'm getting all those Freightcars from it, which I don't really need.

Well, if the Japan Set would indeed de-activate the CargoSet you won´t even get its RVs.

regards
Michael

[krtaylor]

I absolutely agree about the running costs. That's been a goal of mine for a long time, and a significant reason why the US Set has very high costs. I want it to be more realistic than default TTD usually is. Sanchimaru, can you see about having gl2 make adjustments?

I agree about having the Japanset not work with any other train set, definitely. I'd like to do the same with the buildings eventually, but not until there are enough of them to be comprehensive.

Shinkansens are certainly not able to run on any other track. The way it works currently, is the way it should work. I understand about the caternary; that's been in the Patch to-do list for a very long time. It'll get done when it gets done.

Japanese passenger trains are very MU-oriented, particularly the diesels. It's one of the distinctions of Japanese railroading that is reflected in the set, as it should be.

Concerning freight diesels, I agree that there should be another loco between the DD51 and Red Bear, but AFAIK there isn't one. If someone can find one and suggest it, that would be great, but we can't just make one up.

The 1975-1985 gap seems to be real. Again, if there are any trains that should be in there, suggest them and we may be able to add them. It's my understanding that we can have up to 116 different rail vehicles - this includes all the cars as well, for both normal and Shinkansen. But I expect we do have some empty slots we can use for further additions, so suggest away!

One thing that perhaps we should consider, is adding Japanese trams. I've never been on one, and I guess maybe they aren't very common, but I know they exist. Anybody like this idea?

I still need info on some of the trains for the website...

[Sanchimaru]

Korenn: yes, I was planning to add a new improved version of the Shinkansen tracks on the next release.
About the stations, that is a problem with Michael Blunck's new stations. I already mentioned that issue quite a while ago, and I don't recall very well why did he want them to be like that...

Irish: we have to make a new price list. Would you like to lend us a hand here? Since you have been playing it, you have a good idea of how each locomotive works.
It's better if we ellaborate a good list, with fixed prices adjusted to each locomotive and unit.

About hte catenary, as you know this is a feature that appeared 3 days ago... we are off course wanting to use it.

About the diesels, they are not quite common around here. Most locomotives and units are electric, with some exception. You can see from time to time the DD51 hauling short trains or attached to a more powerful locomotive, but it's very rare.

I agree that having no new trains in all that time lap is dissappointing, no matter how real that is. We'll work on that, let's see if there was anything worth being added.

So the main goal now is to ellaborate a new price list, and to find some trains to add to the mentioned gap. I count on the Irish and Toni to help us in this! thanks a lot for you efforts to improve this set!

[prissi]

Well, the long distance sleeper trains are very often diesel double traction (two DD51 or the DE, I always confuse them at sight), at least the ones going to Hokaido and wakadai, since there is no caternary on some parts or even most parts of the track (or at least have been in 2003, when I last traveled there).

But these are the only classical trains, apart from the SL lines ... And shouldn't the japanese set feature at least one trokko (open tourist car) for connection to one tourist attraction?

[krtaylor]

Korenn: yes, I was planning to add a new improved version of the Shinkansen tracks on the next release.

I trust this will also include proper tunnel portals?

Irish: we have to make a new price list. Would you like to lend us a hand here? Since you have been playing it, you have a good idea of how each locomotive works.
It's better if we ellaborate a good list, with fixed prices adjusted to each locomotive and unit.

I don't think you can do fixed prices, since they adjust with inflation. I believe for coding, you use constants of some kind. Maybe gl2 has an interperter tool of some kind, that would be super helpful. You couldn't even use real historical prices if you had them, as inflation would still be relevant there. I think you just have to do relative adjustments - "this one's too cheap" and so on.

About hte catenary, as you know this is a feature that appeared 3 days ago... we are off course wanting to use it.

First I've heard of that. Great news! It should be just a switch to turn on, right? If so, then it would be easy to include in the new tracks GRF, and certainly it would be an enormous improvement.

I agree that having no new trains in all that time lap is dissappointing, no matter how real that is. We'll work on that, let's see if there was anything worth being added.

Maybe there were some experimental trains that showed promise, but were never common? That's how we solved this problem in the US Set. IRL, there's like a 20-year gap with nothing new worth noting - but we included some rare and experimental locos, and solved that problem.

Toni - I added the E415 to the tracking table. I think the best plan would be to have it as one train that's available for a very long time, but to have the livery change over time - not of previously purchased ones, but of newly-purchased ones. That would give the desired effect, but not waste slots.

[Toni Babelony]

Toni - I added the E415 to the tracking table. I think the best plan would be to have it as one train that's available for a very long time, but to have the livery change over time - not of previously purchased ones, but of newly-purchased ones. That would give the desired effect, but not waste slots.

Brilliant plan! Let's do this! I'll start working on it as soon as I have the time. But please don't call it a "E415"! The "E" in front resembles a modern EMU, not an old one... (most new JR EMU have an "E" in front of the type-name) The orange-green striped train is a 211-class BTW... NOT a 415-class >.<

@prissi: Long distance passenger trains are hauled by one or two DD51. Local or tourist trains are ran by the DE10 type. I've never seen a long distance passenger train other than with an DD51 up front
As far as I know there are no other powerful diesels than the DD51, DE10, and DD200.

Here's a website with older types of diesel engines:
http://www.hobidas.com/blog/rail/photo/ ... index.html

Here is a list of the engines on the website with a description:
DD54: already in the set. Used for mainline freight en passenger services. (slightly unreliable);
DD50 1/2: double-segment engine. Powerful but unreliable;
DD90: experimental type. Not interesting for the set IMHO;
DE51: already included. Used for light passenger and freight runs on local services;
DD11: light switching engine. Also used in harbours, industry;
DD14: snowplough type. Not interesting for the set IMHO;
DD13: a bit larger than the DD11. Same services but also short freight runs on private-railways;
DF93: experimental type. Not interesting for the set IMHO;
DD21: snowplough type. Not interesting for the set IMHO;
DF50: powerful mainline engine. Good option for in the set.
DF51: already included in the set. Used in every type of service, even switching!
DD53: mostly used as a snowplough type. Not interesting for the set IMHO;

The best option AFAIK is the DD50:

This engine is powerful and early built, but unreliable and expensive to maintain. A nice extra is that the engine was brown with a creme body lining in the beginning. The more common colour is a red upper half and a grey under half, seperated by a light-green line. Same with the DF50, but this one is less interesting IMHO...

[Toni Babelony]

One thing that perhaps we should consider, is adding Japanese trams. I've never been on one, and I guess maybe they aren't very common, but I know they exist. Anybody like this idea?

Ne? http://ttd.otenko.com/grfs.html?viewGRF=1

Still, I'd like to do some Matsuyama Iyo-Tetsudô trams since that's where my girlfriend used to live for a year.

[Aegir]

One thing that perhaps we should consider, is adding Japanese trams. I've never been on one, and I guess maybe they aren't very common, but I know they exist. Anybody like this idea?

I think stevenh likes that idea: http://ttd.otenko.com/grfs.html?viewGRF=1

[The Irish]

so many reactions... Great!

1. Running costs: To be honest, I don't really have a clue how to calculate such stuff in TTD. As far as I understood, the value has to be between 0 and 256 and then this value is multiplied with something, but... Doesn't mean that I'm not willing to help, just that I don't have a clue.

2. Shinkansen Tracks: I didn't know this feature is available already. Last time I read something was early this year and at this stage, it was still in the "freaking difficult" section of the todo list. Sanchimaru, are you thinking of the "newroutes" feature? If so, I think that is also still a good while off.

3. Missing passenger diesels. So as far as I can understand the discussion here, most passenger lines are electrified, only some small local lines still run on diesel, and maybe some are hauled by DD51. Which sounds rather odd to me. I think the DD50 as Tony points out could be a nice addition to this set, just to have something to replace them steamers with.

4. CargoSet and Japanset deactivating others. I don't agree that the Japanset should deactive itself when loaded with other sets, as long as the other is not a full trainset. So together with the cargoset, it should work.
The CargoSet contains both, RVs and Trainwaggons, and the USSet for example is only deactivating the Trainwaggons, but the RVs are still ok.
I think the Japanset should take the same approach.

5. SHIKI 810 for steel. I know that this is a rather exceptional car and used for big transformers and such. I also know that they only run in the consist as described by Toni, but that wouldn't exclude them from transporting steel instead of goods, which to me sounds even more strange. I know that for transporting huge chunks of steel, there are some strange creations around the world and I think the SHIKI 810 would fit right in there.


sorry that I didn't answer any quicker, but I couldn't write such a novel during office hours... Now I'm off to play.

[Toni Babelony]

3. Missing passenger diesels. So as far as I can understand the discussion here, most passenger lines are electrified, only some small local lines still run on diesel, and maybe some are hauled by DD51. Which sounds rather odd to me. I think the DD50 as Tony points out could be a nice addition to this set, just to have something to replace them steamers with.

It might be odd to you, but when you know that electrifying narrow-gauge tracks with dense traffic is very worthwile. That's why most passenger lines in Japan are electrified.
There are also a huge number of unelectrified lines, but these are served by DMU. The occasional freight train is hauled by a DD51 most of the time.
Besides, Japanese railways don't rely completely on their transport network for profits. Most profit comes from shopping centres, holiday resorts, housing for their personnel and families, office branches, golf (or other sports) resorts and other minor income facilities (hospitals, etc.)

[Sanchimaru]

Ah! ok, so the new routes feature is not still ready!
Sorry, I thought we could already use it...

Indeed, when this becomes available we will add:
-improved shinkansen tracks with catenary
-new tunnels
-new bridges. I already thought of the Akashi bridge, which is not far away from my home.

I forgot to mention about the trams! off course, we are going to use steven's Hiroshima tram set... he already offered himself to collaborate.

The Irish: actually what you have to do is easier that that: You only tell us: "This locomotive is fine as it is; this one is too cheap; this other one has a good price, but running costs are too cheap..."

About the deactivating sets: I don't see why it should deactivate only because there is another set (either deactivate itself or others). It should deactivate itself in the case that some problem appears, or when it's not the correct climate... but other than that players will realize that mixing sets will give odd results. The players can deactivate the sets they don't want by themselves.
For example, if cargo set allows to have more trucks, I think it's fine to use them both. It is unavoidable that some glitches or non matching carriages appear, but some players (as the Irish) may think that it's worth to use.

[PikkaBird]

4. CargoSet and Japanset deactivating others. I don't agree that the Japanset should deactive itself when loaded with other sets, as long as the other is not a full trainset. So together with the cargoset, it should work.

The best way to resolve conflicts is to use GRM... although of course that will only resolve conflicts with other GRM enabled sets.

[The Irish]

about those different sets. when I use the USSet, it tells me in the newgraph window that the USset will deactivate any of the CargoSets railvehicles, but let the roadvehicles available. So, obviously it must be possible. I'm just suggesting that It might be a good idea to follow this same logic with this Set.

And about the costs, I will see what I can come up with. I'll keep you posted.

[krtaylor]

I have no objection to adding more diesels, in fact I think it would basically be good, but in what way is the proposed DD50 different than the DF50 which we already have in the set? I don't know any stats or dates for it, so maybe there are some differences making it worth adding.

This is the first I've noticed stevenh's tram set; I will contact him and ask him if he would like it to be offered alongside the rest of our Japanset.

[stevenh]

This is the first I've noticed stevenh's tram set; I will contact him and ask him if he would like it to be offered alongside the rest of our Japanset.

Instead of a PM, I'd like to tell you all that I'd love to see these trams included in this set...
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=449481#449481
I haven't donated them yet due to GRF coding issues (my lack of knowledge) and because I'm primarily using them for testing the Articulated Vehicles patch...
I am more than happy for you guys to download the GRF from the Articulated RVs thread (first post) and pull it apart... it's there for the general public and I'm happy for people to modify/update the graphics.

[krtaylor]

We are very short-staffed as to coders. I don't think we have any desire to re-code your work. I think at most, we would want to draw additional trams, and contribute them to you for coding. Having them as experimental, is a great thing, because then they will always be the first to use new features and work properly.

If anyone has suggestions as to additional Japanese trams which should be included, please post them here. I don't think you really need a new tram more than every 10 years or so, so we don't need more than a couple additional ones.

[Toni Babelony]

A word from me again:

I've refurbished the 415-100 series and created the 415-500 series. This time with correct sprites:

[Toni Babelony]

Methinks this deserved a double post... I've quickly generated a 103-series EMU.

This type is/was very common on busy commuter lines in the big cities of Japan. Nowadays they can be found on private lines and local JR lines. The 103-series were running around in different liveries. Mainly in a one-colour livery. That's why I've chosen for the company-color design. If you run a red company color, the train will obviously be red, if you run a green company color, the train will be green, etctera.

I hope you like it!

[edit] The train looks a bit battered, but that's how they run/ran around. The 103-series got replated often due to rust.

[Toni Babelony]

I've updated the EF65 to an EF65-1100 series. The livery in the set was used for only a few years. The more general colour of the EF65 is the EF65-1100 livery. I'm sorry if I violated copyrights, but I'm very keen on detail ^^" If so please ignore this post.

As we speak I'm now working on a one-tile station building. The stationbuildings in the set are too small IMHO. Most Japanese urban stations have overhead-stair acess to the platforms, so I decided to make a high-rise building to give the passengers acess to the staircases.
Something like this: