[OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

[Voyager One]

Sorry, I wasn't around during your discussion.

E-W is probably the most logical division.

Now a "stupid" question: what's East Europe and what's West Europe? Politically speaking, is Poland in the "west" regardless it was in the eastern block for decades? Czechoslovakia, what about that? We have Czechoslovakian, Czech and Slovakian trains, depending on the intro year(s). Croatia - I've always considered Croatia as "west" but I'm young (hahahahaha ) compared to some older people who have lived all their lives in the "east". Then it's the geographic point of view - where is the exact border between east and west? And what about something that is always called and cosidered "Central Europe"? That's neither east or west... I could go on and on.

East/West is something we'll always have arguments or complaints from users (I know I would complain about some stuff mentioned above). I already see them: "This was east but now it's west. Change it.", "This was east and should remain east. Change it."...

IMO, Europe should remain on region, regardless of the "overkill" number of trains.

If you ask me, I'd keep it simple regarding regions:
- all world
- Europe
- Americas (both)
- Africa
- Austral-Asia

Yes, Europe will certainly be the most numerous and Africa the least but I think this is the easiest and best division. Also, multiple regions should be selectable so a player could choose one, two or more regions.
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[Purno]

Now a "stupid" question: what's East Europe and what's West Europe?

Yes, a very "stupid" question since Wikipedia has multiple engines.

As I'm in favor of smaller regions, I think this image is a decent way of cutting Europe in parts.

[Voyager One]

That Wikipedia didn't answer most question I've made. Take a better look - East Germany? We've never split up German trains in the 2cc set.

It's easy for you to say you're from west Europe but us former "easterners" could argue indefinitely what's what.

[andythenorth]

FWIW, Iron Horse will use parameters to turn rosters of vehicles on and off.

Plan is to match them up to FIRS economies. They'll be regional, but not specific countries. Road vehicle set I'm doing has same approach.

[Transportman]

Every division is indeed a bit difficult, as there is not one single definition that works for all cases. Might indeed be easier to just keep Europe as one region.

Also, where does Europe stop? Is Russia Europe? And the former USSR? For balancing reasons I would say Asia, to get some more trains in the Asia/Australia region.

@Purno: You're right, simple yes/no (or on/off) for each region.

[Purno]

Also, where does Europe stop? Is Russia Europe? And the former USSR? For balancing reasons I would say Asia, to get some more trains in the Asia/Australia region.

Since Russia is mostly Asian, I'd say it's Asian. And lets not take the USSR in account. If we gonna distinguish nations which no longer exist, we may be forced to add Nazi flags to certain German vehicles...

[Voyager One]

we may be forced to add Nazi flags to certain German vehicles...

That's definitely out of the question.

Regarding regions, I still stand by my previous thoughts regarding Europe. There are too many ways to divide it and there will always be complaints. I know we can't satisfy everyone but we can do our best.

There is one more reason why we should keep Europe in one piece. The main "problem" with that is there will be too many trains in the European "section" but the thing is that Europe has always been the most railway-ized region of the world! I don't think of railway kilometres, I think of the sheer number of trains that have historically been driven in Europe and that are currently being driven in Europe.

Anyway, I have to call it a night now but before I leave... one more...

[alluke]

How many and which ones do you suggest to "renew"?

BTW, the Finnish Vectron is already included in those "new" ones I'm adding.

None of Finnish Vectrons exist yet, so don't add it at least not under Finnish flag yet.

The current vehicles can be renewed since the nice new sprites need only recoloring.

Dm7 also has cargo variant for goods and mail if this set supports "livery" refits.

The new Sr1 livery should be recolored from the newer IC-era livery since the current one has disappeared from rails nearly 30 years ago.

[Eddi]

a technical note on the region switch:

you should decide the climate availability based on this switch, rather than put the whole vehicle in an if-block. this way, the vehicles don't become invalid if someone changes the switch, but rather become hidden from the user. (same method works if you want to remove a vehicle but want to stay savegame compatible)

[Purno]

we may be forced to add Nazi flags to certain German vehicles...

That's definitely out of the question.

Actually, I'm not against Nazi flags if that's a more accurate thing, but I realize it's a sensitive subject.

Just saying we should treat all nations which no longer exist the same way. That includes the USSR.

Regarding regions, I still stand by my previous thoughts regarding Europe. There are too many ways to divide it and there will always be complaints. I know we can't satisfy everyone but we can do our best.

Not splitting up Europe won't satisfy everyone either. There's been a much-heard complaint about the very long vehicle list. That's my main reason to split up Europe in smaller parts. If people don't like our division, they can just enable all subregions of Europe. I think the UN-division map is a good one to use, so we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

There is one more reason why we should keep Europe in one piece. The main "problem" with that is there will be too many trains in the European "section" but the thing is that Europe has always been the most railway-ized region of the world! I don't think of railway kilometres, I think of the sheer number of trains that have historically been driven in Europe and that are currently being driven in Europe.

The 2ccSet isn't aiming at a very high historical accuracy. We've always prioritized gameplay.
Out of gameplay perspective, I'd like to split up Europe. Out of historical accuracy perspective, it'll still be possible to enable all European regions.

The new Sr1 livery should be recolored from the newer IC-era livery since the current one has disappeared from rails nearly 30 years ago.

For the 2ccSet, the older livery is good enough. We can't be historical accurate on all liveries.

you should decide the climate availability based on this switch, rather than put the whole vehicle in an if-block. this way, the vehicles don't become invalid if someone changes the switch, but rather become hidden from the user. (same method works if you want to remove a vehicle but want to stay savegame compatible)

Not sure I get what you mean. Does this interfere with which trains are available in each climate?

[Transportman]

we may be forced to add Nazi flags to certain German vehicles...

That's definitely out of the question.

Actually, I'm not against Nazi flags if that's a more accurate thing, but I realize it's a sensitive subject.

Just saying we should treat all nations which no longer exist the same way. That includes the USSR.

I'm not going to do it, I'm not going to allow patches that change it, if someone wants Nazi flags, they can do it themselves and keep it to themselves.

And I agree to just use the current nation flags, not nations that no longer exist.

Regarding regions, I still stand by my previous thoughts regarding Europe. There are too many ways to divide it and there will always be complaints. I know we can't satisfy everyone but we can do our best.

Not splitting up Europe won't satisfy everyone either. There's been a much-heard complaint about the very long vehicle list. That's my main reason to split up Europe in smaller parts. If people don't like our division, they can just enable all subregions of Europe. I think the UN-division map is a good one to use, so we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

It impossible to satisfy everyone, but I do think Europe has to be divided in two parts.

[EDIT]The UN-division has 4 regions, which I think is overkill for this set[/EDIT]

you should decide the climate availability based on this switch, rather than put the whole vehicle in an if-block. this way, the vehicles don't become invalid if someone changes the switch, but rather become hidden from the user. (same method works if you want to remove a vehicle but want to stay savegame compatible)

Not sure I get what you mean. Does this interfere with which trains are available in each climate?

Eddi just means to set the climate availability of a vehicle to None if the region is disabled. It hides the vehicle from the user, but the game still has access to all the necessary data. I thought I mentioned setting the climate with an if/else statement in an earlier reply, but it might be that I edited that part out before posting.

[Purno]

I'm not going to do it, I'm not going to allow patches that change it, if someone wants Nazi flags, they can do it themselves and keep it to themselves.

Woah, relax. I surrender!
We discussed the Nazi flags years ago, and came to the same conclusion. I'm just using it as a comparison to other nations that no longer exist.

It impossible to satisfy everyone, but I do think Europe has to be divided in two parts.

[EDIT]The UN-division has 4 regions, which I think is overkill for this set[/EDIT]

Overkill? Really? Have you seen the amount of vehicles?

With our extremely long list of vehicles, I don't think it's overkill to divide it in 4 regions. Especially since we're still expanding. But it seems I'm in the minority here.

I do hope though that whatever division we're using, it's gonna last for a while, even after expanding and expanding and etc...

Eddi just means to set the climate availability of a vehicle to None if the region is disabled. It hides the vehicle from the user, but the game still has access to all the necessary data. I thought I mentioned setting the climate with an if/else statement in an earlier reply, but it might be that I edited that part out before posting.

So IIUC, that means that when you change a switch during a game, you can't buy more of the disabled vehicles, but any disabled vehicles you still have driving around, will keep driving around?

And AI works with this too?

[supermop]

What about dividing Europe based on style? The UK could very well be it's own region as it has historically had a distinct network as compared to the continent, and also has a different loading gauge/ structure gauge. I also always liked the way regions were done in Locomotion - UK and Swiss/Alpine. just a few more divisions in Europe based on styles of equipment used might make sense. Maybe focusing on the geopolitical regions of the late 19th Century when the railways came into maturity rather than of the Cold war era would give more sensible train sets.

A region can be playable with as few engines as the default TTO set if need be. I wouldn't mind a setting to just get a TTO style selection of vehicles from any given region.

Surely there should not be a shortage of Asian trains given all of the rail miles in Japan, Korea, China and Taiwan, and the very generous example given by the Japan set.

[Voyager One]

Actually, I'm not against Nazi flags if that's a more accurate thing, but I realize it's a sensitive subject.
Just saying we should treat all nations which no longer exist the same way. That includes the USSR.

And I agree to just use the current nation flags, not nations that no longer exist.

With this said, we need to change USSR flags, there are many of them. I think there are no other non-existant flags other than this.

Country names don't appear anywhere, do they? If they do, we'll need to check those too - I know I've made some "Czechoslovakian" things and some "USSR" things... Fortunately Czechoslovakia has the same flag as the Czech Republic today so that is not a problem BUT several trains have been named "CSD class xyz" and today it should be "CD Class xyz".
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t impossible to satisfy everyone, but I do think Europe has to be divided in two parts.

With our extremely long list of vehicles, I don't think it's overkill to divide it in 4 regions. Especially since we're still expanding. But it seems I'm in the minority here.

Coming to think about it a little more, it won't be bad to divide Europe in 4 regions. I haven't considered the fact that someone can easily activate all 4 or a combination of those regions and get the huge list once again. I agree with Purno.
P.S. Yes, yes, yes... I've changed my mind. I always listed to valid arguments...
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What about dividing Europe based on style?

I don't agree with this. It would be hard to do, it would be very confusing, it would be... bad.

[Purno]

What about dividing Europe based on style? The UK could very well be it's own region as it has historically had a distinct network as compared to the continent, and also has a different loading gauge/ structure gauge. I also always liked the way regions were done in Locomotion - UK and Swiss/Alpine. just a few more divisions in Europe based on styles of equipment used might make sense. Maybe focusing on the geopolitical regions of the late 19th Century when the railways came into maturity rather than of the Cold war era would give more sensible train sets.

But how many regions would that result in?

I gotta agree that I find it it a tad odd that the UN-map groups the UK with the Scandinavian countries, while IMO it makes more sense to add the UK to Western Europe.

But we can discuss the exact region boundries once we agreed upon a general division.

Surely there should not be a shortage of Asian trains given all of the rail miles in Japan, Korea, China and Taiwan, and the very generous example given by the Japan set.

I'd love to add some more Asian trains. We should be aware not to take too many ideas from the Japan set or we'll end up with too many Japanese vehicles.

With this said, we need to change USSR flags, there are many of them. I think there are no other non-existant flags other than this.

I didn't realize we still used USSR flags.

Country names don't appear anywhere, do they? If they do, we'll need to check those too - I know I've made some "Czechoslovakian" things and some "USSR" things... Fortunately Czechoslovakia has the same flag as the Czech Republic today so that is not a problem BUT several trains have been named "CSD class xyz" and today it should be "CD Class xyz".

Country names don't appear, but IMO it could be fun to add them to a vehicle's description.

As for train names... well... I never did any research what any of the codes or serial numbers meant. Personally I don't mind much either. If CSD class trains have been renumbered to CD class trains, we could use the renumbered version. But what about trains that never made it to the renumbering?

Coming to think about it a little more, it won't be bad to divide Europe in 4 regions. I haven't considered the fact that someone can easily activate all 4 or a combination of those regions and get the huge list once again. I agree with Purno.
P.S. Yes, yes, yes... I've changed my mind. I always listed to valid arguments...

Glad to see you came to your senses

-=-=-=-=-=-

HOWEVER, this whole regional division scheme does affect VoyagerOne's list of "gaps" in the current vehicles. Ideally we check for the gaps in every region. Now I don't mind if certain regions have some bigger gaps in them, but they still should be playable. We can increase a vehicle's availability. But each region needs at least an early steamer, some kind of passenger transport (not necessarily a MU/railbus) and a metro.

This may be a nice motivation to search for trains that are currently out of our scope, which also increases diversity .

[alluke]

We can't be historical accurate on all liveries.

That's not my point. The newer livery would be more recognizable, and looks better in my opinion.

[Purno]

We can't be historical accurate on all liveries.

That's not my point. The newer livery would be more recognizable, and looks better in my opinion.

It's a good suggestion, but we're not necessarily doing the most recognizable or better looking liveries

In this particular case, I'll leave it up to VoyagerOne.

[Voyager One]

HOWEVER, this whole regional division scheme does affect VoyagerOne's list of "gaps" in the current vehicles.

No it doesn't! I've gone for a total overkill, I've even scared myself when I've realized how many I'm adding to the already massive list. And what's "worst", I haven't even completed the to-do list!!!

With that said, I agree with the "motivation for research" as it isn't easy as it seems. Yeah, it's easy to find certain things but most things lack in data or pics or stats or whatever. Unfortunately, noone has yet replied to that topic I've created in the "General" forums' section but I would certainly appreciate any help I can get.

Just to show you how hard it is...
- I've browsed ALL wiki pages with ALL subcategories and sub-pages here
- then I've browsed ALL wiki pages with ALL subcategories and sub-pages here and here
- I don't have to mention that I've been quickly done with Railfaneurope because it's not very helpful about older stuff
- then I've re-browsed ALL the forementioned on German and Italian wiki pages and some even on Russian, Spanish and Portuguese languages (I wish someone would kill those how made the Google Translator crap! )
- now I've started browsing trough some more obscure Polish, Czech, Hungarian and other pages

... and during all that, I had to find formulas for calculating missing stats - steamers' TE, steamers power, electrics' TE, electrics' power, diesels' TE, diesels' power... and, of course, all have at least slightly different formulas...

... and, of course, I "consulted" some OTTD sets for stats (Japan set, NARS, UKRS, Dutch set, DACH, DBSetXL...)


So, locomotives are pretty much all covered (a few can be added, no problem) but railbuses and MUs are a bigger problem. They often lack MANY stats and very early stuff is poorly covered.



Help please!!!

[Transportman]

With this said, we need to change USSR flags, there are many of them. I think there are no other non-existant flags other than this.

I was not aware of the fact that the USSR flag was still used in game.

Country names don't appear anywhere, do they? If they do, we'll need to check those too - I know I've made some "Czechoslovakian" things and some "USSR" things... Fortunately Czechoslovakia has the same flag as the Czech Republic today so that is not a problem BUT several trains have been named "CSD class xyz" and today it should be "CD Class xyz".
----

Country names do not appear in the game at this moment unless it is part of the vehicle name in some way (China Railways SS6 for example).

t impossible to satisfy everyone, but I do think Europe has to be divided in two parts.

With our extremely long list of vehicles, I don't think it's overkill to divide it in 4 regions. Especially since we're still expanding. But it seems I'm in the minority here.

Coming to think about it a little more, it won't be bad to divide Europe in 4 regions. I haven't considered the fact that someone can easily activate all 4 or a combination of those regions and get the huge list once again. I agree with Purno.
P.S. Yes, yes, yes... I've changed my mind. I always listed to valid arguments...
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Then we do 4 regions. And now to which boundaries exactly.

What about dividing Europe based on style?

I don't agree with this. It would be hard to do, it would be very confusing, it would be... bad.

I also disagree, it would indeed be confusing. If there is something like North East South and West, people can have a general feeling which countries are included, while it becomes a bit more difficult if European trains are divided based on style.

[Purno]

With that said, I agree with the "motivation for research" as it isn't easy as it seems. Yeah, it's easy to find certain things but most things lack in data or pics or stats or whatever. Unfortunately, noone has yet replied to that topic I've created in the "General" forums' section but I would certainly appreciate any help I can get.

Personally, I'm all for using guesttimates if we can't find a vehicle's stats. We're not aiming for realism, so who cares if some stats are a tad off. And if someone finds a mistake, we can always fix it. If no-one finds a mistake, they probably don't mind the guesstimates either.

Country names do not appear in the game at this moment unless it is part of the vehicle name in some way (China Railways SS6 for example).

"China Railways" isn't really a country, but a company

How about the idea of adding country names to a vehicle's description?

Then we do 4 regions. And now to which boundaries exactly.

Ok, ignoring any division like the UN map, my first thoughts are:
North: Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland
Easth: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldovia, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland , Czech Republic?
South: Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece?, Turkey?
West: UK, Ireland, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Germany, Denmark, Switzerland, Austria

Ok, gotta admit this is harder than I thought it'd be. Perhaps we can start with making a map of the countries we're sure where to put them in? Unless we just go with the UN map. (But the UK in Northern Europe???)