7/10 do not realise Advance tickets allow one train only

[audigex]

MjD, I didn't mean if I just miss my train in the morning - that's blatantly my own fault - but if there's anything else gone on to make me miss a train (99 times out of 100 it's because a previous train was delayed) then they can bugger off.

That said, I drive everywhere now - trains interest me, but as a method of transport in the UK I'd really rather not. I can get pretty much anywhere faster (the only exception being into the centre of London, and even then it's close once accounting for buses at each end), for the same money or even cheaper if there are 2+ people in the car, on my own timetable and significantly more comfortably.

[JamieLei]

Well technically the idea is that you don't split tickets. If one train is delayed and you can't make your connection, then there's no problem as long as it's on one ticket. My travel insurance (bundled with my Natwest Advantage Gold account) also technically insures me against missed public transport connections as long as I'm travelling more than 40 miles away from home, so I don't need to worry about that.

[MjD]

MjD, I didn't mean if I just miss my train in the morning - that's blatantly my own fault - but if there's anything else gone on to make me miss a train (99 times out of 100 it's because a previous train was delayed) then they can bugger off...

If it is due to another train being delayed then I think under ATOC rules then you are allowed to travel on another service with no penalty so you would be fine to do so, personally I was lenient when dealing with such issues as its more hassle than its worth.

[Ameecher]

Well technically the idea is that you don't split tickets. If one train is delayed and you can't make your connection, then there's no problem as long as it's on one ticket. My travel insurance (bundled with my Natwest Advantage Gold account) also technically insures me against missed public transport connections as long as I'm travelling more than 40 miles away from home, so I don't need to worry about that.

Even if you split ticket, if you are delayed on another journey that is on a separate ticket, the TOC still has to sort you out. It might be in the form of a refunded ticket after the event though.

[JamieLei]

Even if you split ticket, if you are delayed on another journey that is on a separate ticket, the TOC still has to sort you out. It might be in the form of a refunded ticket after the event though.

Really? .. - I gotta look into that one!

[Moriarty]

MjD, I didn't mean if I just miss my train in the morning - that's blatantly my own fault - but if there's anything else gone on to make me miss a train (99 times out of 100 it's because a previous train was delayed) then they can bugger off...

If it is due to another train being delayed then I think under ATOC rules then you are allowed to travel on another service with no penalty so you would be fine to do so, personally I was lenient when dealing with such issues as its more hassle than its worth.

The National Conditions of Carriage state:

If you purchase an Advance ticket, you must use that ticket in the train speciied when you
book your ticket. However, if you miss this service because a previous connecting train
service was delayed you will be able to travel on the next service provided by the Train
Company with whom you were booked to travel without penalty.

So yes, if its a train company's fault for the screw up, you can catch the next one by the same operator, at least for Advance tickets.

Really? .. - I gotta look into that one!

Yep; they did me, see the bottom of my post on the first page on this thread. I figure its all one journey irrespective of how many tickets you're holding.

[JamieLei]

I suppose it depends on your definition of connecting. If it's on the same ticket, then no problem, but with 2 separate Advance tickets its a bit more shakey.

[audigex]

Girlfriend just got kicked off a (half full) CrossCountry train for getting the same train an hour earlier - treated like a criminal because her plane landed early and she got the train before. Genuine mistake (she doesn't care about trains) - she just got to the station and got on the next train to where she was going - and was perfectly happy to pay whatever the difference was.

The conductor walks her up to the end of the train, tells her he's kicking her off and then makes her walk back down for her bag - walk of shame style. What a prick. There's a time for taking a hard line and a time for discretion... the worst part is that on literally the same train a few weeks ago I saw a guy in a suit do the exact same thing and be told it wasn't a problem, just to make sure he books the right train next time. The difference? 20 years in age and a suit rather than travel clothes.

Yes she was wrong, but it's a confusing system and she was treated like she was trying to rip off the conductor's children personally, rather than someone who got a train an hour earlier for £4 more, and offered to pay the difference once she realised.

[61653]

Girlfriend just got kicked off a (half full) CrossCountry train for getting the same train an hour earlier - treated like a criminal because her plane landed early and she got the train before. Genuine mistake (she doesn't care about trains) - she just got to the station and got on the next train to where she was going - and was perfectly happy to pay whatever the difference was.

The conductor walks her up to the end of the train, tells her he's kicking her off and then makes her walk back down for her bag - walk of shame style. What a prick. There's a time for taking a hard line and a time for discretion... the worst part is that on literally the same train a few weeks ago I saw a guy in a suit do the exact same thing and be told it wasn't a problem, just to make sure he books the right train next time. The difference? 20 years in age and a suit rather than travel clothes.

Yes she was wrong, but it's a confusing system and she was treated like she was trying to rip off the conductor's children personally, rather than someone who got a train an hour earlier for £4 more, and offered to pay the difference once she realised.

Sounds a bit harsh... I smell an opportunity for some travel vouchers for you and your good lady!

[Dave]

Girlfriend just got kicked off a (half full) CrossCountry train for getting the same train an hour earlier - treated like a criminal because her plane landed early and she got the train before. Genuine mistake (she doesn't care about trains) - she just got to the station and got on the next train to where she was going - and was perfectly happy to pay whatever the difference was.

The conductor walks her up to the end of the train, tells her he's kicking her off and then makes her walk back down for her bag - walk of shame style. What a prick. There's a time for taking a hard line and a time for discretion... the worst part is that on literally the same train a few weeks ago I saw a guy in a suit do the exact same thing and be told it wasn't a problem, just to make sure he books the right train next time. The difference? 20 years in age and a suit rather than travel clothes.

Yes she was wrong, but it's a confusing system and she was treated like she was trying to rip off the conductor's children personally, rather than someone who got a train an hour earlier for £4 more, and offered to pay the difference once she realised.

Rag Cross Country's arse for this... Everywhere you can. Tweet them, facebook. Make it as public as possible. Really show them what a cock their man was. That'll get them on the backtrack.

[Kevo00]

Yes, what Dave says. In the long run they'll pay for driving people off the railways.

Also, many brands damage themselves by failing to reply to posts on their Facebook pages.

[yorkie]

I've always known of this rule, but in some cases I don't always agree with it.

It does say "Booked train only" and if you don't agree with it, an Off Peak or Anytime ticket may be more appropriate.

ITo be honest, i keep getting the peak times in a muddle and when I can/cannot use certain tickets

Just in case there is any doubt, a Penalty Fare or new ticket should not be issued when travelling at a barred time on a time restricted walk-up ticket; an excess would apply.

I Hell, only a few weeks ago I found out I could use my railcard before 10am providing the fare is over £12. Never got told it, and it wasn't in the leaflet. Or at least the latter says that I'll get a extra fare of £12. Confusing stuff.

There is a minimum fare of £12 before 10:00 and it is in the Railcard T&Cs. If you travel before 10:00 then an excess up to £12 applies (or a new ticket, if cheaper).

The bit that confuses people in general is when connections are involved. Eg: Birmingham to Cambridge via London is a journey I do A LOT. The FCC portion (you could also take GA if you wanted) is not reserved and doesn't appear on the ticket, so people don't realise you can take any train. Usually they assume that what the website says is the mandated train

The T&Cs state you can take "appropriate connecting trains"

My friend took a train from Cambridge to somewhere SWT-land, and the website told him to go into Tottenham Hale, then to Victoria, then Clapham Junction to pick up his FCC train (rather than across London to Waterloo). I kept telling him that he should just go to Waterloo but he insisted that that's what the website told him and that's what he should do, at the risk of getting fined.

Only a Court can issue a fine.

I have to be honest, i have no idea when peak and off peak are. I only thought peak/off peak affected London based services anyway.

The National Rail website will tell you the restriction for any Off Peak ticket on any flow you choose, but it is difficult to use. Many people find brfares.com much easier.

It is true that all Saver (SVS/SVR) tickets - which are generally now called Off Peak, and retain the SVS/SVR code - for non-London journeys were valid at any time. However since privatisation many TOCs introduced restrictions on these tickets, resulting in huge fare rises of several hundred percent for some journeys at certain times!

I nearly always buy Off-Peak returns, knowing nothing except i have 30 days to get back to my original station before they expire. I'm unaware of what off-peak times are, nor what 'Valid Route' is. I just assume the route i am going is valid, as it will end up at the station i want.

If you travel at a time or route that is not valid (on a walk-up ticket), you could be charged an excess fare. So I suggest looking it up before you travel! If you are still unsure, you could ask at a dedicated Fares, Ticketing & Routeing forum where experts can assist.

On some tickets there are route restrictions, so you have to go by a valid route, ie. on a ticket between Leeds and Sheffield my ticket will say NOT VIA DONCASTER to prevent me from getting an EC train from Doncaster to Leeds (although why I would do that when I can get a XC direct...), and on other tickets it will be EC & CONNECTIONS, so I have to go by EC..

If you want to go from Leeds to Sheffield via Doncaster there are alternative tickets I could recommend (thanks to mistakes and anomalies in the system).

However if you used this ticket via Doncaster you'd be charged HALF the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare for the Any Permitted ticket (e.g. for a Railcard holder on a CDR would be charged £1.65, a non-Railcard holder returning a different day holding an SOR travelling at any time that the SSR is valid would be charged £4.15)

As for EC & Connections, that does not mean EC Only, and could be issued with Northern as the connection between Doncaster & Leeds.

Yeah. I've had one that had NOT BY <> which was obvious, but all my others have just been 'Any Permitted', which aren't too specific at all. I mean i go to Scarborough, so does that mean I have to go on the TPE to Scarborough, or can i be a twit and get the TPE to Hull then go to Scarborough from Hull on Northern? Who knows, it doesn't say on the ticket thats for sure. It's all a jumble of words to me, so far i've never had a hiccup though, so eh. I must have enough common sense to not fall foul.

From where? Brockholes? It will be routed "Any permitted" which means any route listed in the Routeing Guide, which in this case is map TP only so not valid via Hull. The solution is simply to buy a ticket to Filey, this is valid via Hull or via Scarborough.

. However, I've read a number of sources that would seem to suggest that actually, the rail companies ought to consider your journey as a whole, and still try their best to get you there. So that's quite handy, as my tickets from North Wales back up here after the meet involve some relatively tight connections. (I'm sure they'll be fine, though...)

Yes, NRCoC Condition 19 allows you to use more than one ticket for one journey. The Advance T&Cs state you will be allowed to complete your journey in the event of delays. This is also clarified in the Advance Fares FAQs in The Manual.

Peak and Off Peak mainly affect London services and rovers, although London Midland have got off-peak restrictions in Birmingham now, and there may be a few others.

Just a few! Since privatisation loads of previously unrestricted SVR fares, covering thousands of flows, have been restricted so there are now more restrictions than ever before, and the list is growing.

You can read all the restrictions here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/OffPeak.pdf there are 115 pages of them!

[yorkie]

The other day I got stiffed with a "unpaid fare notice" on a Cross Country (work will pay but I'm appealing it on principle) for using an offpeak at "anytime". They want me to pay the upgrade cost from offpeak to anytime; about £60.
XC have a "any journey that starts before 09:30 is an anytime" policy. I started at Leamington (to southampton) on the 09:00. Except the 08:55 from banbury (the train AHEAD of the one I got) was offpeak because that ticket was apparently set by First Great Western. How the hell am I supposed to know that? I just saw the 08:55 was offpeak so logically the 09:00 would be too.

You had a Leamington Spa - Southampton Off Peak Return priced at £60.70 and used it before 09:30? Sadly that is indeed not valid before 09:30, so not valid on the 08:55 or the 09:00.

Were you returning the same day? If so this is cheaper:-

LMS - BAN £8.80 (SDR - No restriction)
BAN - RDG £11.20 (CDR - Valid from Banbury at or after 0900)
RDG - SOU £17.50 (CDR- Valid from Reading at or after 0900)
TOTAL PRICE: £37.50

I ask the conductor and his response? "You should consult a ticket person". . You need expert advice just to buy a bloomin ticket!

Yes, though they will tell you to either pay £118 for the 0900 or to take a later train. They will not tell you about ticket combinations. Alternatively you could check online.

And for bonus points, he insisted that I couldn't just buy a ticket from Leamington to Banbury because if the ticketed journey requires you start before 09:30 to be sitting on that exact train it has to be an Anytime, even if you would only start using that ticket part way through its specified journey. I've checked and there's nothing about that in the National Conditions of Carriage.

Well, the restriction applies for the journey and in this particular case when the train departs your origin station.

Could they make it any more complex?

They are making it more complex all the time.

Of course, as a result of this you can get some really rubbish stuff.

09:05 - Warwick to Leamington (Chiltern) - Offpeak.
09:38 - Leamington to Southampton (XC) - Offpeak.

09:05 warwick to southampton changing at leamington (so the exact above journey)? Anytime! Because it starts before 09:30, despite both parts being respectively offpeak themselves. In what way is that even vaguely right?

Can you tell that I'm miffed?

Chiltern are more generous than XC.

But if we ask for simplification, I can guarantee what will happen: all tickets will become as restrictive as XC, if not worse.

I recently built a journey from two separate offpeak tickets. One of the trains was late causing me to miss my 5 minute connection (gee, didn't see that coming ). When I went for a refund they refunded the entire journey, not just the part that was covered by that particular offpeak ticket. (That was Arriva Wales refunding).

Yes, that sounds correct to me (providing 5 mins was a valid interchange time - it is at most stations)

I buy the ticket for the cheapest train and get it. If I miss that train, it's late or in some other way I miss a connection then good luck to them getting more money out of me - that'd be one for the courts.

Frankly I think it needs to be massively simplified, or at least clarified. I want to know what I can/can't do with my ticket, and what I should do if there's a problem.

It could be simplified, and it would be to the most restrictive ticket. How about all Super Off Peak abolished, and all Off Peak not valid until 09:30, and all Day fares also not valid between 15:00 and 19:00? They could legally do that (because the Government at the time set insufficient safeguards on protected fares). If forced to simplify, they will do exactly that. In fact, they have plans to make all Off Peak tickets not valid until 09:30 and it has been proposed to the DfT but the DfT has said no.

I was recently booked onto a train to London that got cancelled. I asked three different people at the station what I should do, and one told me to get the next InterCity service, one told me to get the next service (a commuter service), and one person told me to get a new ticket. I ended up taking the next InterCity service, and the guard gave me no problems once I explain the situation to him, so everything ended up fine, but it was very confusing.

Without knowing the origin, destination and ticket type I couldn't comment.

On the topic of rail tickets, when I went from Reading to Bath, I forgot my railcard, so being the diligent citizen that I am, I went to the ticket office and told them what had happened. The man there issued me another ticket which cost the difference between an adult and a railcard fare. All fine. On the return from Bath, the man at the ticket office refused to do this and told me that I would just have to explain myself to the guard on the train. Luckily on the return journey, the guard didn't check my ticket so I was fine, but why did two people do two different things? Nonsensical, I mean to me the logical thing to do is add on the cost so that I've paid the equivalent as an adult had.

Before travel, the first ticket clerk was correct. The second ticket clerk was not correct. As for why, it is due to insufficient training and inadequate mystery shopping. If this happens again, get the first clerk to excess both tickets.

If you miss the train and its your fault or not the fault of the railway then your ticket is invalid,...

If the customer misses the first train due to their own fault then they are not covered. But if the customer is at the station in good time to get the first train and that is late or cancelled for ANY reason then the customer IS covered for their entire journey (providing sufficient interchange time has been allowed so all connections are valid connections, of course).

Well technically the idea is that you don't split tickets. If one train is delayed and you can't make your connection, then there's no problem as long as it's on one ticket. My travel insurance (bundled with my Natwest Advantage Gold account) also technically insures me against missed public transport connections as long as I'm travelling more than 40 miles away from home, so I don't need to worry about that.

Incorrect. Two or more tickets can be involved, there is absolutely no requirement for the journey to be on one ticket. I'm guessing someone else has told you this incorrect info? If it was a member of rail staff I'd be interested to know more so I can investigate to ensure the TOC concerned is complying with the rules.

Girlfriend just got kicked off a (half full) CrossCountry train for getting the same train an hour earlier - treated like a criminal because her plane landed early and she got the train before. Genuine mistake (she doesn't care about trains) - she just got to the station and got on the next train to where she was going - and was perfectly happy to pay whatever the difference was.

The conductor walks her up to the end of the train, tells her he's kicking her off and then makes her walk back down for her bag - walk of shame style. What a prick. There's a time for taking a hard line and a time for discretion... the worst part is that on literally the same train a few weeks ago I saw a guy in a suit do the exact same thing and be told it wasn't a problem, just to make sure he books the right train next time. The difference? 20 years in age and a suit rather than travel clothes.

Yes she was wrong, but it's a confusing system and she was treated like she was trying to rip off the conductor's children personally, rather than someone who got a train an hour earlier for £4 more, and offered to pay the difference once she realised.

If the flexibility to take any train is required, purchase an Anytime or Off Peak ticket (obviously the Off Peak may be restricted at certain times on weekdays) not an Advance ticket.

An Advance ticket cannot be excessed on board, and a new ticket is payable. The conductor should have asked her to pay the cost of a new ticket. Did he do this? If she refused to pay then either she can be prosecuted or asked to leave the train.

Did the conductor really ask her to leave the train without giving her the option of purchasing a new ticket? If so that is quite shocking and extremely surprising.

[audigex]

Girlfriend just got kicked off a (half full) CrossCountry train for getting the same train an hour earlier - treated like a criminal because her plane landed early and she got the train before. Genuine mistake (she doesn't care about trains) - she just got to the station and got on the next train to where she was going - and was perfectly happy to pay whatever the difference was.

The conductor walks her up to the end of the train, tells her he's kicking her off and then makes her walk back down for her bag - walk of shame style. What a prick. There's a time for taking a hard line and a time for discretion... the worst part is that on literally the same train a few weeks ago I saw a guy in a suit do the exact same thing and be told it wasn't a problem, just to make sure he books the right train next time. The difference? 20 years in age and a suit rather than travel clothes.

Yes she was wrong, but it's a confusing system and she was treated like she was trying to rip off the conductor's children personally, rather than someone who got a train an hour earlier for £4 more, and offered to pay the difference once she realised.

Sounds a bit harsh... I smell an opportunity for some travel vouchers for you and your good lady!

I would, but quite frankly I'm sick of trains and their extortionate price rises and I've got better things to do. 90% of the time it's cheaper for me to drive, the other 10% of the time it's comparable and almost always far more convenient/comfortable. They can stick their travel vouchers, their Super Voyagers and their advance fairs - I'll stick with my 1 and a half tons of german hatchback.

If I was musical enough to make a "United breaks guitars" style thing, I might be tempted.

If the flexibility to take any train is required, purchase an Anytime or Off Peak ticket (obviously the Off Peak may be restricted at certain times on weekdays) not an Advance ticket.

An Advance ticket cannot be excessed on board, and a new ticket is payable. The conductor should have asked her to pay the cost of a new ticket. Did he do this? If she refused to pay then either she can be prosecuted or asked to leave the train.

Did the conductor really ask her to leave the train without giving her the option of purchasing a new ticket? If so that is quite shocking and extremely surprising.

I know this, you know this - but my girlfriend (and 7/10 travellers, apparently) don't. She wasn't given the option to pay for a new ticket - she may or may not have offered to, in fact (I think she said she did, but I wouldn't like to swear it without asking her) - but if she asked she wasn't allowed to, and either way it wasn't offered. He asked her to follow him "to sort this out", got to the door and asked her to get off. She said she needed to get her bag so he followed her up the train and back to the door to make sure she got off. I very much doubt he would've done it if she wasn't 19 and probably looks slightly younger when in her travelling gear. I've known people let off completely or just excessed (even if they aren't supposed to, many conductors seem to let it slide), so to be kicked off and treated like a criminal without an option of buying a ticket left her reasonably upset. She's not got the highest self esteem and knows nothing about trains so wouldn't have known what to say. To kick a crying 19 year old young lady off a train in that fashion is disgraceful.

I wouldn't even have minded so much if it was a busy commuter train, was absolutely rammed or was at peak time, it was only half full and already past the most busy part of it's journey (into and out of Birmingham) so it was only going to empty out further, and she had a totally valid ticket for a train exactly one hour later. I wouldn't have expected her to be let off completely or excessed (although I've known both happen), but to be treated the way she was, is outrageous. I'd probably have been arrested for trying to push the conductor down one of the rather smelly toilets if it had been me treated like a child, criminal or both.

I'd say it was almost certainly down to her age and looking a bit dossy due to just getting off a train and being run down. Oh, and she's also (fairly obviously, when she speaks) Irish. If 7/10 English travellers don't know how it works, you'd think the maximum leeway (such as there is) would be given to a foreigner, or at least given the chance to explain and pay for the ticket.