DR Stuff (WIP)

[nilsi]

As much as I would like the idea, I think mb is not a friend of this one.
However
a) there is a chance of getting permission to use his graphics for a full blown set
b) we could make a completely new one with saxon and prussian vehicles

We will see mb's opinion soon I think.

Edit: You were faster..

Exactly what enthusiasts are you talking about?

[michael blunck]

[including DR vehicles]

As much as I would like the idea, I think mb is not a friend of this one.

Well ... I don´t find this idea uninteresting (this has indeed been discussed many times before), but firstly, there are some principal problems integrating DR history into the DB set, and secondly, ATM I´m already working on too many projects, one of them being the new version of the DB set itself which, BTW, will introduce more DR engines, anyhow. Third point would be that I´m not too much into the sublties of the DR.

Exactly what enthusiasts are you talking about?

Those two in this thread and some more in the german tt-forums where we´ve had discussed this before.

regards
Michael

[nilsi]

I was actually refering to the "Patch" idea.

But IMHO it would still be the best idea. It needs a few "overwritable" independant vehicles though, i.e. not used for livery overwrite or something like that.

[TehCowSezMoo]

Well if mb lacks the time to get that DR stuff ready I'll give it a shot. (ofc you gotta live with my lack in drawing skills). I'll add everything I've drawn to the first post. Tell me if you like it and what you'd like to see improved on it (you can also simply tell me "wtf that doesn't look anything like my beloved <insert name here>). However I have no idea how to get it in-game so I'll need help with that too.

[nilsi]

Well I could help with coding :) I have no idea about callbacks, but single vehicles are in my grasp of nfo coding.

PS: Have you ever used grfcodec?

PS2: I like your drawing skills.

[michael blunck]

[DR]

A DR (east) set would be a cool thing to have, yet how should that make sense in the context of the game? What about the time from 1921-1950 and from 1990 onwards? [...]

[...] I'll give it a shot. [...] I'll add everything I've drawn to the first post. Tell me if you like it and what you'd like to see improved on it [...] However I have no idea how to get it in-game so I'll need help with that too.

Well, here´s my 2cc.

As has been often said, there´s little use in starting to draw vehicles in the first place, but what will be needed is a proper concept beforehand.

Without question, it would be a good thing to have the history of the DR pictured in some way, be it inside the DB Set, be it via a "patch" for the DB Set, or as a new set on its own.

However, as Uwe pointed out, this isn´t an easy thing to do, both conceptually, and code-wise. I´ve thought about that for a long time (there were always proposals to have DR vehicles in addition to the DB Set) and I still don´t have a proper solution.

To clarify this, let me add some general comments.

First of all, as Uwe already wrote, the DR as a company had only a limited lifespan, let´s assume 1950 - 1990. And o/c, usage of DR-specific material would be most important during that particular time frame. Before 1950, in the DRG era, there was only scarce variation throughout its network. And after 1990, it´s the same with the DB, except, e.g., for a very brief transition time interval after re-unification.

Now, if we look closer into that 40 years of the DR, there are some special issues, which would have to be modeled in the first place, IMO:

1) the extensive use of steam locomotives, both in terms of types in service and in number of years in usage. Unlike its western counterpart, the DR inherited quite a lot of different steam locomotive types (classes) from its predecessor. According to W. Glatte, there were some 60 types with the DB in the early 1950s, but some 150 types with the DR. O/c, these numbers of types were quickly reduced, but in any case, the DR had always more steam locomotive types in service than the DB. In addition, the steam locomotive cycle lasted very much longer than in Western Germany, due to expenses of Diesel fuel and lack in electrification, and therefore, the DR specific "Rekoloks" (more than 660 reconstructed locomotives) must be taken care of and would have to be implemented.

Now, code-wise this means, that all those steamers which would have to be used in the DR era would have to be introduced already in DRG times, because you cannot "delay" the introduction of an engine until a later date in time. Which means you cannot use (only) the DB set for the pre-DR era, because it simply doesn´t contain those engines.

E.g., engines which should be newly included in a DR set (Rekoloks) would be the 03 (-> 03.10), 39 (-> 22), 41, 50 (-> 50.35, 50.40, 50.50), 52 (-> 52.80), 58 (-> 58.30).

Then, a DR set would o/c need the 65.10, 83.10, 86, 95 (T20), ...

2) use of NG, especially steamers. Unlike the DB, the DR made full use of the majority of its NG branch lines until 1974 (and even built locomotives for it), and only then downsized its NG network to the well-known 7 lines, most of them still in service for touristic purposes today.

Good candidates for NG steam locomotives would be

- for the saxon NG lines: the Henschel-built sä VI K, the DRG 99.73-76,
- for the Harz region: the 99.590 Mallet, the 99.23 built in 1954-56,
- Bad Doberan: the 99.2131-2323 would be nice to have in TTD, anyway.

3) Use of DR-specific diesels

- V60 or V100
- the czech-built V75
- V 180 (118)
- the romanian-built 119
- russian-built 120
- russian-built 130 or 132
- russian-built 142

4) Use of DR-specific electrics

- 211 (E11)
- 242 (E42)
- 243
- I´d include the 251 (E251)

5) rail cars

5.1 diesel

- 183 (ex SVT "Leipzig")
- 181 (VT12.14, by Ganz-Mavag)
- 175 (VT18.16)
- 173 (VT4.12)
- VT133 xxx (div. Schienenbus)

5.2 electric

- nothing but 276 and 277 (Berliner S-Bahn)


Needless to say that there aren´t enough free IDs in the DB Set to cope with this amount of locomotives.

Next point would be coaches. Because the DR had a lot of specific coaches, the DB Set´s scheme for coaches cannot be used, but this set would need an own scheme for the years 1960-1990.

OTOH, freight cars could be used from the DB set. However, the next version of the DBXL will use GRM, so any cooperation between sets wouldn´t be easy to arrange.


Conclusion

ATM, I really don´t know in which way this could be realized best. Problem is that there are too many unknown variables, i.e. the missing definition of what will constitute that DR set in the end.

So, here´s only a formal assessment:

1) inside the DB Set (switch DB | DR by parameter)

advantage: may use already available DB Set vehicles (engines, coaches, freight cars)
disadvantage: very complicated programming,

2) via a "patch" for the DB Set

advantage: relatively small "patch" (depends on size of the DR part)
disadvantage: GRM problems, needs interface to DBXL

3) stand-alone set

advantage: straightforward solution
disadvantage: needs all own DRG and DB vehicles, very much work

[edit: added DR railcars]

regards
Michael

[TehCowSezMoo]

That's very nice of you to point that out. I already spent some time thinking about it (biggest drawback is that I don't quite know what's where in those .nfo files) Now basically I imagined it to be like this: first add a number of post-war engines replacing DB engines and adding DR-specific passenger coaches. They'd be refittable to fit the different coaches the DR used. That should be "easy" (unless mb says: lolz no you mustn't use my precious dbset) to achieve (I believe, I could be totally wrong on that).

Next step would be to get that Rekolok stuff done. I imagined that just to work like it currently does for the changing liveries.

And for the NG stuff: I thought we'd simply drop monorail and replace it by NG rails with corresponding trains (kind of obvious).

Again I'd like to point out that I have totally no idea how that's coded but I simply adapted what I have seen so far in TTDP. It has been done once and can be done again

So for now the aim would be:

- pre-war : dbset
- dr-era : replacing db engines and passenger coaches with "mainstream" DR stuff
- post-dr : modified dbset to reflect the engines used in ex-GDR today
(so eg BR 111 would become available like 1994 or something)

I don't assume that it can be done in a day (more like two or three ).


On a sidenote: get done what you can get done and then start worrying about the other stuff ^-^

[Uwe]

Ah, I see Michael has already thought about this quite well I'd just like to add some details to it:

In 1946, all electrification stuff (overhead wires, isolators, ...) and all electric engines were brought into the Soviet Union, leaving the DR with Steamers only. Some of the engines were given back in the 1950s, but it took years to get them fit for service again. That is the main reason why many steamers were reconstructed: They simply were indispensable. However, it cannot be modeled in TTDX to simply lose all electric engines for about 5-10 years by changing them to steamers... (or can it? )

In addition, the second track from double track lines was dismantled as well after the end of the war, leaving the whole network in ruins as single track lines. This cannot be modeled adequately in TTDX, yet it should be in some way simply because the DR suffered from this network crippling throughout their existance.

The oil factor has been mentioned by Michael, I just want to give a bit more detail on it: In the 1960s, an oil pipeline from the Soviet Union into East Germany was finished, so the DR could get cheap diesel oil. Therefore, in 1967 or so it was ruled by the politicians that instead of electrification (copper is expensive!), Diesel engines had to be used. Due to the regulations within the communist block, this basically meant buying these engines from the Soviet Union. So, there was only little work on electrifying lines during the 1970s. However, in 1980 the Soviet Union raised the prices to international standards, causing a severe crisis for the DR as it relied on Diesel oil, which gave the last remaining coal-fired steamers the opportunity to see regular service until the late 1980s.

So, just to shed some light on the backgrounds as to why certain things were handled the way they were. The list could easily be continued...

[nilsi]

Well here we go:
Railroad crossing DR style by me