Graphics disabled

[BBoy Symm]

Reagarding inquiries of my license. It's right that forbid any usage outside TTD(Patch). Or in other words the usage with other applications like OTTD is forbidden.

The personal aspect: I haven't seen yet a reason why I should in anyway support OTTD consindering the most time I will be angry about some User of the OTTD Community as soon as I get in some contact with them, this is my personal feeling about it and doesn't mean all people, but some people do really annoy me and takes all the fun out of the whole TTD world.

The legal aspect: There is no sign of OTTD to become a proper project in the legal sense. Anyone has to respect the Copyright of others. There was enough discussion on that subject, so enough said.

As my grf has error texts and doesn't show a big error in nforenum I can only guess something changed the way OTTD handles errors..Consindering no one posted an error message, I guess OTTD still doesn't support grf errors properly. Blame the devs

Personally I don't think my tunnels are that good, consindering the whole creation process (I still wait for others to provide better tunnels) they are created only because of the way enhancetunnels work and heavy depend on the concept of the misbehaving of the TTD(Patch) spritesorting.

So I wouldn't be able to use the graphics in OTTD you made unless I have your approval? I don't really understand why. You don't like OTTD/the people that play it?

[DaleStan]

And another thing: TTDPatch, if we want to be strict, isn't legal either,

On what grounds? And from which law school did you graduate?

If someone built an exe that would make MS Windows unrecognizable from new additions

That's not a fair comparison. Reverse-engineering is forbidden by all recent Microsoftian EULAs. It is, however, not forbidden by the TTD EULA.

So I wouldn't be able to use the graphics in OTTD you made unless I have your approval? I don't really understand why. You don't like OTTD/the people that play it?

No. He wants to not get run in for aiding and abetting copyright violation.

[BBoy Symm]

No. He wants to not get run in for aiding and abetting copyright violation.

Ok, I get it now, thanks. I do hope he will allow us to use it one day, but, indeed, thats up to him.

[athanasios]

And another thing: TTDPatch, if we want to be strict, isn't legal either,

On what grounds? And from which law school did you graduate?

If someone built an exe that would make MS Windows unrecognizable from new additions

That's not a fair comparison. Reverse-engineering is forbidden by all recent Microsoftian EULAs. It is, however, not forbidden by the TTD EULA.

The latter solves the problem somehow. Yet we should consider how many do really have a legal copy of TTD. There are thousands members in the forum and I don't think that all these have one, but get TTD through links posted at ...
So
1. We provide a patch for a licensed copy TTD, which only 1% possess and rest 99% will use illegally in the way we all understand. And don't say we are not responsible with what they will do with TTDPatch: TTD is getting very old now. -> Few people would get into the trouble of downloading a copy and playing it, but with TTDPatch many many people become interested. -> Very few copies are available for sale (if any). -> The rest will download an illegal copy, and this is more easy now because of TTDPatch... -> TTDPatch is an incentive to break the law
2. We provide OpenTTD, which currently is violating copyright issues (considering it a work in progress, so will get rid of that material by time) and people have problems with OpenTTD in some countries.
What's the real difference between 1 and 2?

It is somewhat similar to torrent and storage companies, where 99,99% of software links are illegal copies but companies say they are not responsible for what members upload/download. The law says the opposite and some have been shut down. Actually all should be shut down if law was strictly applied. Yet the governments refrain to enforce the law due to pressure from the masses. (Certainly they don't want to loose their position in the next elections...)

(To be honest nobody can stop software piracy. Companies have to admit this and concentrate in getting profit from business software (there it is not so easy to use pirated software, government inspectors demand licences of sofware used, but who can come to your house and demand to see your licences... You will kick him out!), and make available same software for home use free of charge. It seems some companies got the point.)

Finally: With or without this discussion nothing is going to change. Unless Microsoft buys the copyright of TTD and then we will all be running like rats to disappear. And I don't mind that I will be imprisoned cause I don't have a cent to pay a fine. I mind I want be able to pay TTD anymore. B*G* will stop supporting/selling TTD and come up with a new version, maybe titled "VistaAeroTTD" that will make a big hit in the market but it's BlueRay DVD will be good enough to use as a tray for your coffee cup.

[DaleStan]

The latter solves the problem somehow. Yet we should consider how many do really have a legal copy of TTD.

Then the distribution of TTD (or TTD's graphics files) is illegal. This has what bearing on the legality of programs that require it/them?
SucmmVM, unless I'm greatly mistaken, requires legal copies of the LucasArts games you want to play. How is this different than requiring a legal copies of the Microprose game you want to play? Or is ScummVM illegal too?

1. We provide a patch for a licensed copy TTD,

But there are no copyright issues with TTDPatch's code, are there? Just (possibly) the way you choose to acquire its data files. (Functionally, even TTD's executable is a TTDPatch data file.)

2. We provide OpenTTD, which currently is violating copyright issues

But there are no copyright issues with OpenTTD's co--- Oops. Nevermind.

I have a hex editor installed on my computer. Am I in trouble because hex-editors are used for circumventing NoCD checks? Even worse, I have a *compiler* on my machine, and everyone knows that those are used for creating viruses.

[athanasios]

I have a hex editor installed on my computer. Am I in trouble because hex-editors are used for circumventing NoCD checks?

Can you make a new thread and tell us how they do this?

[Born Acorn]

2. We provide OpenTTD, which currently is violating copyright issues (considering it a work in progress, so will get rid of that material by time) and people have problems with OpenTTD in some countries.

In the numerous copyright debates before this one, it was said many times that it doesn't matter how far along OpenTTD becomes developed, it will always be illegal because it is a derivative of the original code.

[gkirilov]

And what if there is nothing left from that reverse engineered code in OTTD? This means that it is no longer a derivative of the original TTD code.

[Ailure]

IANAL. But i'm quite sure TTDpatch is illegal in some countries that have really strict laws about reverse engineering, but to be fair I probably wouldn't want to be living in those countries. And there's been A LOT of patches over the years that applies to various binaries, but I never seen legal trouble surrounding one...

[DaleStan]

And what if there is nothing left from that reverse engineered code in OTTD? This means that it is no longer a derivative of the original TTD code.

But it's derivative of code that was derivative. AUIU, you must be able to prove a "clean-room" re-implementation to clear derivative-code charges, and Open's room is just about the dirtiest I've ever seen. IANAL.

Ailure: Can you name any such country, or are you merely speculating?

[richk67]

It is all academic anyway. The ultimate aim of OpenTTD is to lose any reliance on the original TTD data files. This will mean it will be no worse than the current situation for distribution - ie. still a breach of the copyright on the code.

OpenTTD would have a strong case in a court, as significant documented efforts have been made to obtain permissions, and the copyright holder (Atari) has expressed no interest in investigating or approving/denying permission. In court that would count significantly negatively against them, as the judge would certainly ask "You were informed, and asked for clarification. You showed no interest then, so your interest now is of a lesser value." This, though, would probably only limit any claim for damages to a token amount.

In the same way that TTDP claims its ok because it is reverse engineered, so is OpenTTD. Both are derivative works, and TTDP only works by modifying the original code - albeit at a lower level than OpenTTD. The only difference is really the amount of original code & files that are required to have the product work.

Neither is better than the other, and if Atari came calling aggressively, both would probably be shut down. However, since no money has been made, it is unlikely that individuals would be pursued. At which point, Atari would probably not bother as it isnt in their commercial interest.

IANAL - but in most countries (even America) the law usually operates on some level of common sense.

[eis_os]

Please define "significant documented efforts" via pm. I think I have missed A LOT then... The goal of the OTTD project if I am able to put it into one sentence is: A version of (Open)TTD to work on all platforms without the need of any original TTD files. This is a fundamental difference to TTDPatch.
If this goal is reached OpenTTD will be interesting for commercial usage in the sense of support or other fancy ways, like a download fee. So ultimative a company or individual can create financal damange.

But we already discussed these points enough, no need to start again, this can be done in a seprate thread or via pm

[athanasios]

If this goal is reached OpenTTD will be interesting for commercial usage in the sense of support or other fancy ways, like a download fee. So ultimative a company or individual can create financal damange.

That's why I do not agree with current licence of OpenTTD. It should not allow for commercial derivatives, fees, etc.

[richk67]

Interesting point - as I said in my pm to eis_os, "As long as OTTD and TTDP remain totally free, and do not distribute the original files, they should remain relatively safe from lawyers." Given the potential commercial options in GPL, it is probably not the best licence to use.