split from DB Passenger set (copyright discussion)

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ChrisCF
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Post by ChrisCF »

For someone that supposedly respects Owen, Michael's got an interesting way of showing it ...
Michael wrote:Owen, I´m sick and tired of those perpetual copyright infringements by a
*certain group* of members of your forums and the point in time could be
near that I´d try legal means to stop this.

In any case you are responsible for any data uploaded on your server by
your forum members.

So please stop that illegal behaviour, else I´ll have to do it some day,
unfortunately.
Is that any way to talk to someone you respect? Even if there is a modicum of respect for Owen in there, Michael totally lacks a sense of respect for anyone else, and that alone puts him in my bad books. Perhaps I should engage in some civil disobedience ...

(It's probably worth remembering that legal precedent in Europe is that server administrators are *not* responsible for third-party submissions, contrary to Michael's opinion)
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Post by spaceman-spiff »

I totaly agree with Chris, putting that 'please' is so stupid compared with the rest, Owen is a very understanding and smart boy, he doesn't deserve these kind of idle threats
A whole lot of storm in a glass of water, if you ask me, i'll let it rest for now
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Post by DaleStan »

Any chance of getting those copyright posts split to somewhere else?

And now, back on topic, *PLEASE*.
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Post by Raichase »

Yes, If there is anymore of that speak here, It WILL be split. It is fine to discuss opinions on how someone copyrights his work, but when it gets personal, the line is drawn there.

We have all seen it folks, except some of our newer members, lets not let it happen again.

R.
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Post by michael blunck »

Well, time to put my case here personally before Raichase steps in.

First of all: Unfortunately, this will not be the last time that "copyright" will be an issue here.

But that´s not because I am a "bad guy", it´s because that this forums is one of the places where people are a) notoriously ignorant of copyright issues and b) some others like to deny copyright at all.

But that´s not my fault.

The DB Set as well as all other .grfs released by me (execept the very first TempSet and
ArcticSet which were under the GPL) are copyrighted, graphics as well as the code, as is the case with every computer program.

The "licence" for these sets allows using, copying and distribution. It does not allow modifying of any part of the .grfs nor including it into other software, e.g. other .grfs.

Please do inform yourself about international copyright law if you have lack of knowledge with regards to this.

O/c I am aware that there are constant infringements of my copyright, some are minor (I usually don´t care) but some are severe. E.g. there have been unauthorized modified copies of the DB Set on some german servers which have been removed on my request. There have also been foreign vehicle sets where the foreign graphics have been pasted into the original DB Set .nfo code like the first CSD set did. These have also been removed on my request, both from the forums and from czech servers.

OTOH, I´m working closely together with many other developers and there has never been any complaints about usage of my code or graphics. I´m even collaborating with Petr Vanek which once made that first CSD set in denial of my copyright. :)

But here we are again.

So what has happened? Some people want to build yet another "DB Set" and Saskia uploaded "work done so far". But this file didn´t contain "own work" only. It contained also *original graphics* derived from the DB Set, which is not allowed according to the DB Set licence and the aforementioned copyright laws.

The real problem is that the graphics from that file would have been included, possibly modified, into some other vehicle set just because other people wouldn´t know it´s original material from the DB Set. That´s why I asked Owen to remove that file.

The requested comparison could be found here:

http://www.ttdpatch.de/copyright.png

It seems that Owen didn´t get the attachement.

So, the *legal case* is chrystal clear.

An equally severe second point is that - as always! - those people who violate copyright and talk bad about the copyright holder when trapped, are finding again their cheap excuses: "case closed". That´s really "as always" and o/c that´s one of the reasons I prefer to not use this forum.

Saskia "never planned to officially release them" - but she did it right here! Another guy once did a screen-scrapping of some freight stations to be released by me - but "they should never leave my PC". Petr Vaneks CSD set was "never intended for release". And so on and on.

And I bet that there are still people here who think that Saskia did right and I did wrong. And o/c there would be future copyright violations just because new users arrive but "copyright" isn´t an issue on ttd-forums but something evil like M$.

Well, I can´t help that but I´d really like if Owen could put some basic information about copyright in the general section.

It´s simply like patchman said: "to take them first and hope for forgiveness later is rather rude" but there are people who *always* do it this way. I have a well-defined stand for these cases.

And o/c I have a valid email address and in addition you could reach me by the ttd mailing list or the tycoon news group when you have any questions concerning my work.

kind regards
Michael
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Post by George »

I can’t understand. Why do some people contact Michael and get the permissions (me, for example), and some can’t? Reading all these thread makes a picture of Michael as a monster, who stops everyone’s work. But then, why I can work with him, he can work with me? Am I a monster too? I do not think so. May be people should contact more to each other to prevent conflicts and everyone will win in the end?
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Post by Born Acorn »

Wow. The Micheal Blunck on the forums. :shock:
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Post by OzTrans »

... enough has been said. We now know what is expected from us and we will oblige. If you want to go on about it do it somewhere else.
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Post by Aegir »

Although you are stern with your policy about un-authorized modification (Too stern in my oppinion, but I am exceedingly free about such issues) of your code and graphics, I'm forced to agree with you. You make an excellent case.

I also don't get why some people think that they can get around this because you do not make personal appearences on these forums often, it is incredibly easy to contact you via other means, Newsgroup and email to mention a few.

I particularly agree with the idea about some basic information about copy-right, preferably international laws, stickied somwhere. I personally hate all these arguments, so one central location, like the site rules for instance would be a neat way of quickly finishing off such disagreements.

Best of luck to you Michael, I hope these people giving you grief cut it out promptly. You probably have tons more 'silent suporters' on these forums then the gripey ones. Put me down for the first category :).

Oh, and I love your work by the way ;).
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Post by Raichase »

Thanks Michael. Hopefully that clears some things up.
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Post by Saskia »

@Michael: I'll say it in german, it's easier for me to find the right words: Schön, dass Du dich auch mal persönlich hier meldest. Ich habe nicht abgestritten, dass das deine Sprites sind. Die Sprites, die du als deine ausgibst, sind auch wirklich 100%ig deine. Aber bei der BR 216 kannst Du sehen, dass ich die Sprites wirklich nur als Vorlage genommen habe (Richtung des Fahrzeugs, Maßstab, Farben des Fahrgestells) :wink: Ich habe mit einem Märklin-Katalog auf meinem Schoß das Fahrzeug Pixel für Pixel neugezeichnet. Das schlimmste mag gewesen sein, dass ich bei einigen Dingen deine Zeichenmethode aufgegriffen habe, aber trotzdem ist alles neugezeichnet. Bei den anderen Loks bin ich noch nicht dazu gekommen, und es sind deine Sprites - darum ist da auch nichts abgehakt. Glaub mir, spätestens im finalen Release des Sets wären alle deine Grafiken verschwunden. Klauen bringt doch nix und macht erst recht keinen Spaß :P Deswegen fand ich deine Reaktion etwas übertrieben, selbst wenn Du natürlich im Recht bist. So, und jetzt Ende, die beanstandeten Sprites sind komplett gelöscht, und bei der 216 und beim Transrapid werde ich deine Sprites abstrahieren, soll schließlich nur eine Orientierungshilfe sein.
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Post by The Irish »

Gut, dass wir das besprochen haben. Vielleicht koennen wir uns jetzt wieder den wichtigeren Dingen zu wenden.

I'm happy we have discussed that now. Maybe we can all go on now and deal with the more important things.
I somehow agree with MB, stealing his works is not correct, but I believe Saskia when she says that it wasn't intended to release like that.

I would be really sad to see all the work that was done here wasted over such an issue.
So please keep going with this set, i really like the ideas of it.
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Post by Born Acorn »

Can some of us non German speakers get a translation please? :wink:
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Post by krtaylor »

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Post by Born Acorn »

Yes I do know about babelfish buts its very unreliable. Doubt Micheal beautifully announced himself :P
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Post by krtaylor »

Well, it let me get the gist of the conversation, anyway, which is the point. Machine translation has a long way to go to reach the level of C3PO.
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Post by The Irish »

Ok, I will give it a shot.

Saskia said:
Nice to see you here in person. I have never denied that these are your sprites. The sprites you claim to be yours are yours 100%. But as at the 216, you can clearly see that it was only a template, to see the scale, colors etc.) I had a model train catalog in front of me and redrew the engine pixel by pixel. The most sever thing I did migh be that I have used the same method to draw, but everthing has been drawn from scretch. For some engines, I havn't had the time yet and they are your sprites, thats also why they are not thicked off. Believe me, latest in the final release, they would have been redrawn completely and all your graphics would have been gone. It's no fun to steal any graphics.
That's wy i found you reaction a bit too harsh, even though you're right. And now, that's it, all your sprites are completely deleted and at the 216 and Transrapid i will use your sprites as a "orientating help" only.


That's it. more or less. Hope you can make sense out of it.
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Post by orudge »

Well, anyway, from my point of view, if this issue, which seems to have been a misunderstanding and release of sprites not intended for public use, is resolved, then I'm happy. If someone would like to write a "Guide to Use of Sprites" or something similar, which provides an easy-to-understand guide about legal rights and graphics, and perhaps a list of common graphics sets which are or aren't under modification-friendly licences, I'd be happy to sticky/announcementise it.

If there is any further conversation, can a mod split the appropriate posts to a new topic please?
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Post by krtaylor »

Well, it let me get the gist of the conversation, anyway, which is the point. Machine translation has a long way to go to reach the level of C3PO.
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Post by Spaceball »

Well it works quite well but only with certain languages like portugese-english.

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