George's Long vehicles V4 beta4 is out (07 sep 2007)

[Snail]

How about correcting just the two horizontal views?

I do not like the idea. you usually see the bus on a road in diagonal view

OK, but you could correct the diagonal views by changing the window coupling scheme... as you'll see in the pics I attached, the Viberti version didn't have coupled windows; you could use the same colors for the chassis parts separating the windows in the Viberti version, while keeping the alternate light and dark parts in the Cansa, if you get what I mean.
And I think that, in the Cansa, halving the size of the last window on the right side of the horizontal view wouldn't hurt, at least in the larger door model.

The pics I found show two different door schemes for the Viberti; the front door could be mounted in two different positions. I'd especially look at the "rear_door" picture inside of the pic: there, the front door is a bit more behind the normal position (one window's length). There wasn't such a version for Cansa models. That, too, could help differentiate the two variants.

In another pic in the .zip you can see the difference in the front radiator between the two versions. (perhaps too much of a small detail to appear in a TTD sprite?)

BTW, I just found two more pics of the "luxury" version. (You could even call it "wide door", it's up to you).

but the door is not 'wider', it has more parts... Could you find a photo with opened doors? or a schema?

Well, the normal length door had 4 wings, and the wider one has 6 wings. The larger door was the result of actually adding a half door beside the existing front door. Just try and find a name you think is appropriate ("4-wing door" and "6-wing door"?)

[Spaceball]

@George

thats my Suggestion. If you don't like luxury make it premium. You asked for.

cu, Spaceball

[George]

thats my Suggestion. If you don't like luxury make it premium. You asked for.

I do not "don't like the word luxury". I don't like it HERE. The wider door is made to increase the loading speed that means less sitting places. It does not increase the luxury, it decreases it, because more people will stand and less - sit. That's why I looked for a "name", but "luxury" does not fit in

[George]

How about correcting just the two horizontal views?

I do not like the idea. you usually see the bus on a road in diagonal view

OK, but you could correct the diagonal views by changing the window coupling scheme... as you'll see in the pics I attached, the Viberti version didn't have coupled windows;

But for articulated bus it has?

you could use the same colors for the chassis parts separating the windows in the Viberti version, while keeping the alternate light and dark parts in the Cansa, if you get what I mean.

I get what you mean, but I don't like the suggestion

And I think that, in the Cansa, halving the size of the last window on the right side of the horizontal view wouldn't hurt, at least in the larger door model.
The pics I found show two different door schemes for the Viberti; the front door could be mounted in two different positions. I'd especially look at the "rear_door" picture inside of the pic: there, the front door is a bit more behind the normal position (one window's length). There wasn't such a version for Cansa models. That, too, could help differentiate the two variants.

they are already different with the size of the first door.

In another pic in the .zip you can see the difference in the front radiator between the two versions. (perhaps too much of a small detail to appear in a TTD sprite?)

So small for the ttd

BTW, I just found two more pics of the "luxury" version. (You could even call it "wide door", it's up to you).

but the door is not 'wider', it has more parts... Could you find a photo with opened doors? or a schema

Well, the normal length door had 4 wings, and the wider one has 6 wings. The larger door was the result of actually adding a half door beside the existing front door. Just try and find a name you think is appropriate ("4-wing door" and "6-wing door"?)

For now I just use Virbety for normal door and Cansa for triple door.

[Snail]

For now I just use Virbety for normal door and Cansa for triple door.

Ok, I got it. Then let's do that way. Three variants:
- "Fiat 411 Cansa": same four variants as before, light green-dark green, white-yellow, light blue-dark blue, two-tones company colors. Large first door. Light green-dark green variant with brown doors.
- "Viberti Monotral CV23": the real name of Viberti's 2-axle model. Two variants, cream-red or monotonic company colors. First door of normal dimensions; it'd be nice to have it in both positions shown in the last pictures (ahead if cream red, behind if company colors, for instance)
- "Viberti Monotral CV46": this is the articulated bus' real name. No changes needed in the sprites.

This could be the final release for me. How does it sound?


EDIT: Here's some text to put on your webpage, feel free to cut or edit it...


In the early Fifties, many European countries recovering from the war saw their population rise and the need for new, modern mass transit systems soon became a priority. Many constructors responded to this need by designing larger, more efficient buses and Fiat was no exception. After some earlier attempts, 1956 saw the introduction of the model which would become the standard vehicle for urban transportation in the country: the 411. It was soon tried out and appreciated in a large number of cities and small towns, where it became popular. Many local constructors proposed their revised version of that bus, all built on the same original chassis and powered by same 10.6 liter engine; one of these firms also proposed an articulated, high capacity version. Even a trolleybus version was available, called 2411.
In its many years of production, this bus line went through three major improvements, only to be discontinued in the late Sixties; the last units were set aside in the mid Eighties. This set includes three of the many available variants of the Fiat 411: the version with the Cansa bodywork, here in the variant featuring its typical larger front door, and two proposals by Viberti, the 2-axle Monotral CV23 and the 3-axle CV46 used in Turin. Some of them appear in their historical liveries.

[George]

well, I represent you Fiat 411

[George]

Oh ####! Could not you post it 3 hours before? I've uploaded the version to the site And now you show me my mistakes

For now I just use Virbety for normal door and Cansa for triple door.

Ok, I got it. Then let's do that way. Three variants:
- "Fiat 411 Cansa": same four variants as before, light green-dark green, white-yellow, light blue-dark blue, two-tones company colors. Large first door. Light green-dark green variant with brown doors.
- "Viberti Monotral CV23": the real name of Viberti's 2-axle model. Two variants, cream-red or monotonic company colors. First door of normal dimensions; it'd be nice to have it in both positions shown in the last pictures (ahead if cream red, behind if company colors, for instance)
- "Viberti Monotral CV46": this is the articulated bus' real name. No changes needed in the sprites.
This could be the final release for me. How does it sound?

Technicaly - good. But it is late for the final release. Will be the next fix.

EDIT: Here's some text to put on your webpage, feel free to cut or edit it...

Ok, Thanks

[Snail]

Sorry man, couldn't really post earlier

Capacities and doors design are nice, only thing needing change are the names and the livery scheme. And maybe moving the door a bit behind in one of the two Viberti versions.
Looking forward to seeing your next release!

[George]

Sorry man, couldn't really post earlier
Capacities and doors design are nice, only thing needing change are the names and the livery scheme. And maybe moving the door a bit behind in one of the two Viberti versions.
Looking forward to seeing your next release!

One more thought. Why do dark-green light-green livery is used for 3-axle veberty, but for 2-axle cansa and not for 2-axle viberty, while red-cream is used for viberty only? May be it would be better to make the upper part of the dark-green light-green 3-axle viberty a bit different colour?

[Snail]

One more thought. Why do dark-green light-green livery is used for 3-axle veberty, but for 2-axle cansa and not for 2-axle viberty, while red-cream is used for viberty only? May be it would be better to make the upper part of the dark-green light-green 3-axle viberty a bit different colour?

Well, that's for accuracy reasons.
Speaking of the 2-axle models, light green-dark green was the most popular livery historically, and was applied to all variants; in order to differentiate our models better, though, it's good to leave that livery just for the Cansa and to assign the cream-red one to just the Viberti (it was actually typical of that model). Otherwise we'd have two almost identical sprites (the only differences would be the doors, visible just in 3 views).
As for the 3-axle model, well, there are always the mixed-company-colors liveries to differentiate them... the light green-dark green painting ought to be there, it was the most popular on the 18-meters version!

[George]

One more thought. Why do dark-green light-green livery is used for 3-axle veberty, but for 2-axle cansa and not for 2-axle viberty, while red-cream is used for viberty only? May be it would be better to make the upper part of the dark-green light-green 3-axle viberty a bit different colour?

Well, that's for accuracy reasons.
Speaking of the 2-axle models, light green-dark green was the most popular livery historically, and was applied to all variants; in order to differentiate our models better, though, it's good to leave that livery just for the Cansa and to assign the cream-red one to just the Viberti (it was actually typical of that model). Otherwise we'd have two almost identical sprites (the only differences would be the doors, visible just in 3 views).
As for the 3-axle model, well, there are always the mixed-company-colors liveries to differentiate them... the light green-dark green painting ought to be there, it was the most popular on the 18-meters version!

Test updated version

[Snail]

Test updated version

Done it! It's cool.
Great job man

[George]

Test updated version

Done it! It's cool. Great job man

I hope you test it good and there are no more bugs. Do you like the new front part for Cansa?

P.S. Fiat 418 moved down in the ToDo list because of Ikarus 620 and Ikarus 55. I do know for how long

[Snail]

I hope you test it good and there are no more bugs. Do you like the new front part for Cansa?

Yep, tested all the variants, they're exactly as they should be. Love the different fronts, they follow the pictures quite well, I didn't know we could differentiate them at that point. You're a true wizard at drawing vehicles

P.S. Fiat 418 moved down in the ToDo list because of Ikarus 620 and Ikarus 55. I do know for how long

I see. Well, there's no rush if you have other plans. I'm glad you decided to include the 418 anyway. Are you planning to put the articulated version as well as the single A and AC? I found a drawing for another bodywork for the AC if you like (the one I gave you was a version by Macchi, I have another one by BCF, same firm which "dressed" the 421).

[George]

P.S. Fiat 418 moved down in the ToDo list because of Ikarus 620 and Ikarus 55. I don't know for how long

I see. Well, there's no rush if you have other plans. I'm glad you decided to include the 418 anyway.

as I could understand, the fiat 418 "articulated" bus is not the standart articulated bus, which has the one framed body, which can turn. It consists of two parts, connected with each other. Can be called a "trailer". That's why I was interested.

Are you planning to put the articulated version as well as the single A and AC?

I plan to add it as the first step. Single bus has no new interesting things, because we have Inbus buses, which are rather similar. The only interesting thing is the two-part articulated version.

I found a drawing for another bodywork for the AC if you like (the one I gave you was a version by Macchi, I have another one by BCF, same firm which "dressed" the 421).

I'd like to get any matirial that could help me. But I can't promice it soon. You were waiting for Fiat 411 about 5 months

[Snail]

as I could understand, the fiat 418 "articulated" bus is not the standart articulated bus, which has the one framed body, which can turn. It consists of two parts, connected with each other. Can be called a "trailer". That's why I was interested.

Yeah, that's true. The trailer structure came actually a bit earlier than the 418 was introduced. The first model which adopted it was the 410 from the Sixties: a pic is here. But I doubt I could find any data for it, the 418 Macchi was the only one for which I found the drawings. Here is another variant of the 418, made by Viberti (again, still no drawings for that).

I plan to add it as the first step. Single bus has no new interesting things, because we have Inbus buses, which are rather similar. The only interesting thing is the two-part articulated version.

Ok then... for the 418 trailer I think I already gave you enough stuff, in the next days I'll try to collect some pics of single variants too, so that you can see if you want to add some later (there were lots of them).

[George]

as I could understand, the fiat 418 "articulated" bus is not the standart articulated bus, which has the one framed body, which can turn. It consists of two parts, connected with each other. Can be called a "trailer". That's why I was interested.

Yeah, that's true. The trailer structure came actually a bit earlier than the 418 was introduced. The first model which adopted it was the 410 from the Sixties

Hm. It looks better, than 410. May be you could do more search?

is But I doubt I could find any data for it, the 418 Macchi was the only one for which I found the drawings. is another variant of the 418, made by Viberti (again, still no drawings for that).

410 is better. And Fiat 418 Macchi looks better, than Viberti

I plan to add it as the first step. Single bus has no new interesting things, because we have Inbus buses, which are rather similar. The only interesting thing is the two-part articulated version.

Ok then... for the 418 trailer I think I already gave you enough stuff, in the next days I'll try to collect some pics of single variants too, so that you can see if you want to add some later (there were lots of them).

You have already did it (I have both photos and drawings). Better search for 410.

[Snail]

Hm. It looks better, than 410. May be you could do more search?

Ok, but the 410 was produced in different times than the 418. The 2-axle model's production spanned from 1960 to 1973 (so in 1960-1970 both 410 and 411 were in production, but 410 was more advanced, having the engine under the floor) and the trailer version from around 1969 to the mid seventies. (it came so late to production because it was meant to replace the articulated 411). The 418 was the model which replaced it.
Anyway, I found a drawing of the trailer 410, here it is. Still looking for pics. And here are some pics of the various version of the 410 (there were many, you can choose which ones you like best if you decide to put the single version too). I'll hopefully come back with a drawing of the single version too, shortly.

What would you say?

[George]

Hm. It looks better, than 410. May be you could do more search?

Ok, but the 410 was produced in different times than the 418. The 2-axle model's production spanned from 1960 to 1973 (so in 1960-1970 both 410 and 411 were in production, but 410 was more advanced, having the engine under the floor) and the trailer version from around 1969 to the mid seventies. (it came so late to production because it was meant to replace the articulated 411).

But why the trailed model replaced articulated model? I Thought that trailed technology is less effective than articulated bus technology

The 418 was the model which replaced it.

And also was trailed, while Fiat 421 had no articulated version. Strange

Anyway, I found a drawing of the trailer 410, here it is. Still looking for pics. And here are some pics of the various version of the 410 (there were many, you can choose which ones you like best if you decide to put the single version too). I'll hopefully come back with a drawing of the single version too, shortly. What would you say?

I'd prepher this one

[Snail]

But why the trailed model replaced articulated model? I Thought that trailed technology is less effective than articulated bus technology

Don't ask me, ask Fiat
Anyway, it's probably because the 410's engine was moved under the pavement (while it was in the front in the 411), so that produced a different balance of weights, needing the trailer to be independent from the front part. As you can see, the 418 adopted the same engine scheme, and was a trailer too. The later buses, though (the Inbus and the later Ivecos) featured the engine in the rear, so they switched back to the articulated model. (but here I'm going into guesswork, I'm no engineer)

The 418 was the model which replaced it.

And also was trailed, while Fiat 421 had no articulated version. Strange

Well, not every bus was produced in all variants we can think of. At that time they were already designing the trailer 418, so there was no need of articulating the 421. Also, the latter had a totally different engine and wheel displacement (the rear wheels weren't coupled) so planning an articulated version would have meant redesigning the whole bus. It's the same reason why the Saviem SC10 was never articulated. Instead, what they were planning for the 421 was a doubledecker variant (only a few prototypes were built though).

Anyway, I found a drawing of the trailer 410, here it is. Still looking for pics. And here are some pics of the various version of the 410 (there were many, you can choose which ones you like best if you decide to put the single version too). I'll hopefully come back with a drawing of the single version too, shortly. What would you say?

I'd prepher this one

Ok. That one was the 410 trailer with Viberti bodywork. The chassis was the same as in the drawing I sent you, so that drawing would do the work, I'll try to find some more pics. Might be really hard though. You have difficult tastes, getting pics and drawings for tyhe 418 was a lot easier (j/k!)