George's Long vehicles V4 beta4 is out (07 sep 2007)

[krtaylor]

Say, George, would it be possible for you to add an early tractor-trailer in the 1940s? Something bigger than the Opel anyway. Right now, the Opel expires before something new arrives to replace it.

[George]

Say, George, would it be possible for you to add an early tractor-trailer in the 1940s? Something bigger than the Opel anyway. Right now, the Opel expires before something new arrives to replace it.

Well, I do have it the plans, but I do not know when shall I do it. I think next year For now I can suggest to increas Opel's model life.

[krtaylor]

Well, that's not ideal, but it's a welcome improvement that should mitigate the problem.

[George]

Just a couple of notes. I see that you put the company colors as default livery for the single version, and that's fine if you like it (perhaps you could modify it so that the top half gets a slightly lighter tone?).

Yes, I can.

Ok! That'd be nice.

Should I add it or replace the current one?

As I could see on your photos, there were at least 2 historical liveries - Light green + green and ? dark green

Well, probably you're referring to some black & white pics?

Yes, I do

Or maybe to some other versions I sent you time ago (there was one by Menarini). Anyway, here are some pics of other liveries; I could only find pics for the 2411, the trolleybus version of the 411, but both models shared the same liveries.
the white-yellow scheme, and you can find the light blue-dark blue one. They were both applied to the 2-axle version.

Isn't it Ok to have white top player-colour bottom livery then?

You'll notice that the dark blue-light blue's bodywork is bit different, and that's because front and back were modified for the trolleybus model. This pic should help you get an idea of the livery scheme.

You mean no radiator at the front because there were no motor?

If you do, it'd be cool if this version had the doors painted in dark brown, as some buses had wooden doors.

Should all of them have brown doors?

Well, only the 2-axle light green-dark green one should have brown doors, the others should have doors painted in the same color as the upper part of the bus. Not all buses had wooden doors, but the majority of those painted in those livery had.

On the photo of the articulated version they are more light than the upper part.

I tried really hard to make it appear, but I couldn't... if you didn't make it, I'd suggest you to add it, if this doesn't create problems.

Well, it does not, but I have to invent some place for the player's colours then.

Yeah, I see. Well, the two existing color schemes aren't bad. Perhaps keeping them and adding the light green-dark green and the cream-red?

I mean player's colour on the fixed colours version. For example, Fiat 421 has player's colours on the sides (advertisement hoardings)

BTW, I saw in your site that you're revamping the 421, do you need any extra pics? (I recently found a site which has lots of them!)

Do you have photos from the above the bus? The improving is for the roof only.

Yes, I happened to find a pic from above. It shows an AL Cameri and you also get a glimpse of an AL SEAC. Here it is.

Good

BTW, I also happened to find pics of another variant of the 421, signed by another bodywork manufacturer (Menarini). Here are some pics... Here's one in the original cream-red livery.
The model is a 421AL, so the dimensions are the same as the long variant already drawn. Do you think you could be interested?

No. The diff is too small for the TTD scale

[Snail]

Yes, I can.

Ok! That'd be nice.

Should I add it or replace the current one?

It'd be more similar to authentic liveries, but let's see how they look in a game first, then we'll decide.

Snail wrote:
You'll notice that the dark blue-light blue's bodywork is bit different, and that's because front and back were modified for the trolleybus model. This pic should help you get an idea of the livery scheme.

You mean no radiator at the front because there were no motor?

Yep! That, and the single back window. Those were features only the trolleybus had. Maybe we could add it when (if) we can use trolleybuses in the game!

Isn't it Ok to have white top player-colour bottom livery then?

Well, it's up to you, depends on how many liveries you want to keep available. This also refers to the 3-axle variant.
My idea would be:
- for the 2 axle, to have an all-company colored livery, and three of the historical ones (light green-dark green with brown doors, white-yellow, and light blue-dark blue);
- for the 3 axle, to keep the current mixed green-company colors while adding the light green-dark green and cream-red. You can add the company-colored advertisement boardings in the overridden liveries if you like.

Well, only the 2-axle light green-dark green one should have brown doors, the others should have doors painted in the same color as the upper part of the bus. Not all buses had wooden doors, but the majority of those painted in those livery had.

On the photo of the articulated version they are more light than the upper part.

Might be, maybe I missed that. Well, do them as they appear in the pics then, just it'd be nice if the 2-axle light green-dark green had brown doors.

Say, George, would it be possible for you to add an early tractor-trailer in the 1940s? Something bigger than the Opel anyway. Right now, the Opel expires before something new arrives to replace it.

Sad to hear George's schedule is so full... anyway here you get the stuff you need to draw the Steyr trucks. They're not exactly tractor trailers (although they did have trailers), but I think they're nice and peculiar trucks to have.

Since the problem is the gap between the Opel and the Navistar, I'd propose to add either the Steyr 370 or the Steyr 380. The former was developed in 1946 and the latter in 1948; so, you could choose whether to slip the 370 could in the 1945 slot or the 380 in the 1949 slot.
The specs were pretty much the same; as you can see in the pics, I found lots of data for the 380 and some for the 370, but since the two models were very similar, one could use the 380's drawings to do the 370 as well.

A bit of specs...
Max speed: 80 km/h (370), 77 km/h (380)
Power: 80 HP gasoline (370), 85-90 HP diesel (380)
Dimensions: see drawings in .ZIP
(370's wheelbase was shorter than 380's; 3500 mm against 3710 or 4200).
Life: around 15 years I'd guess
You'll find data about weight and other stuff in the "Technical" folder inside the .zip. Since I have the feeling George can speak German, it would be no problem extracting them from the technical sheets!

I found all this stuff at http://www.zuckerfabrik24.de, you might want to have a look at it yourself!

Hope you find this stuff interesting.

Cheers!

Snail

[Snail]

Sorry, didn't mean to double post, but I reached the top # of attachs per message. Here's some other stuff about Steyr trucks.

[George]

Isn't it Ok to have white top player-colour bottom livery then?

Well, it's up to you, depends on how many liveries you want to keep available. This also refers to the 3-axle variant.
My idea would be:
- for the 2 axle, to have an all-company colored livery, and three of the historical ones (light green-dark green with brown doors, white-yellow, and light blue-dark blue);
- for the 3 axle, to keep the current mixed green-company colors while adding the light green-dark green and cream-red. You can add the company-colored advertisement boardings in the overridden liveries if you like.

Ok

On the photo of the articulated version they are more light than the upper part.

Might be, maybe I missed that. Well, do them as they appear in the pics then, just it'd be nice if the 2-axle light green-dark green had brown doors.

Ok

Say, George, would it be possible for you to add an early tractor-trailer in the 1940s? Something bigger than the Opel anyway. Right now, the Opel expires before something new arrives to replace it.

Sad to hear George's schedule is so full...

Unfortunately it is. I promiced so many things to so many people ...

Since I have the feeling George can speak German

I can read German

[Snail]

George, love those tiny things

The new liveries you introduced are awesome. I like pretty much them all.
Did I miss something or are there 5 available for the single version? I saw light green-dark green, light blue-dark blue, white-yellow, light company-dark company and all one-color company... plus 4 for articulated (light green-dark green, cream-red and 2 variants with company colors). I thought you could introduce multiples of 2. Maybe I didn't try hard enough

Notes:
- the 2-axle light green-dark green livery seems to have a lighter tone on the upper part than its corresponding colors scheme on the 3-axle bus. If you wanted to uniform them, I'd say extend the 2-axle light green to the 3-axle, there's more contrast.
- the 2-axle light green-dark green is missing the brown doors
- the names of the variants are still to be changed (you were planning to do this next I guess).

Keep it up! I hope I see the 3-axle 411 bend in a game some day

(p.s. someone do something about this forum... I just got lots of error messages, then checked the topic again, and my post was up in five copies... yeck!)

[George]

The new liveries you introduced are awesome. I like pretty much them all.
Did I miss something or are there 5 available for the single version?

Yes. You wanted to compare liveries in player's colours - the monotone and the light top dark bottom. I made this test version for you.

I thought you could introduce multiples of 2. Maybe I didn't try hard enough

Or I can interpolate other with degrees of two. For now I made a low level approximation (1/8 for both the player colour liveries and 1/4 for the others)

Notes:
- the 2-axle light green-dark green livery seems to have a lighter tone on the upper part than its corresponding colours scheme on the 3-axle bus.

It is 1 tone different.

If you wanted to uniform them, I'd say extend the 2-axle light green to the 3-axle, there's more contrast.

Me wants? It is your task to choose the most proper variant. I can make any variant

- the 2-axle light green-dark green is missing the brown doors

In the plan. It is a test version. I didn't fix the windows and doors yet.

Keep it up! I hope I see the 3-axle 411 bend in a game some day

As soon as DaleStan will code the template, I'll try to implement it. But then I shall think about reducing the amount of liveries for the articulated versions.

[Wile E. Coyote]

George: one little mistake in purchase list. In model name field appears Ikarbus IK-301 only (not IK-301/IK-308).

[Snail]

Yes. You wanted to compare liveries in player's colours - the monotone and the light top dark bottom. I made this test version for you.

Ok, then my suggestion is to keep the version with the light top, dark bottom.
As for the green historical livery, I'd say to modify the 3-axle variant in order to make it the same as the 2-axle one (lighter top).

[George]

Yes. You wanted to compare liveries in player's colours - the monotone and the light top dark bottom. I made this test version for you.

Ok, then my suggestion is to keep the version with the light top, dark bottom.

I want to make a model with the triple door (as it appears on one of your photos). Could you invent a name for it? Could you also find its capacity?

George: one little mistake in purchase list. In model name field appears Ikarbus IK-301 only (not IK-301/IK-308).

Will be fixed

[Snail]

I want to make a model with the triple door (as it appears on one of your photos). Could you invent a name for it? Could you also find its capacity?

Ok, will try to get some data for it. It was actually a "luxury" version, the bodywork was made by Cansa as the normal-door version. I'll see if that version had a particular name. If I can't find the data, you might downturn the capacity a bit (less room for standing passengers) and tweak up a bit the loading amount factor.

[George]

A new test version (I didn't put the strings yet)
And I could not make a good windows views. Could you find drawings from the left side? Could you find more of them?

[Snail]

A new test version (I didn't put the strings yet)

Got it. Tried it out, it's neat. Saw the billings, I say we can keep them if you like them.

And I could not make a good windows views. Could you find drawings from the left side? Could you find more of them?

OK, I've done some more research. The drawing of the 2-axle model I gave you had actually the Viberti bodywork (same constructor for the 3-axle). The only difference with the Cansa bodywork was the windows displacement. For the Cansa window displacement, please refer to these model pics (they're *very* accurate) and to the trolleybus pics I'm attaching here (it's the 2411, an electric powered 411). The basic difference was that Cansa's windows were slightly wider than Viberti's ones, and this implied the need for one very narrow window a bit behind the 2nd axle, which the Viberti didn't have. So:
- in the right view, Viberti had five standard windows between the doors, while Cansa had four standard windows plus one very narrow window:
- in the left view, Viberti had eleven standard windows (the driver's one plus other ten "coupled" in 1+2+2+2+2+2, exactly like you in your model), while Cansa had ten standard windows plus one very narrow window, in a 1+1+2+2+2+1narrow+2 coupling fashion, as you see in the model.

So the version you drew was actually done by Viberti. No harm in keeping it, it's accurate and it was actually used. Only thing to do in order to switch to Cansa is to redo the window displacements using the models and the pic. I'm sorry for not noticing this before.

So my proposal would be that we still had five models of the 2-axle version, like now, but divided in this way:
- Fiat 411 (2-axle Viberti): same sprite as now, cream-red livery (the Viberti was actually very popular in that livery)
- Fiat 411 (2-axle Cansa): modified windows; available variants, dark green-light green (with brown doors), white-yellow, light blue-dark blue;
- Fiat 411 (2-axle luxury Cansa): modified windows: 2 tones of company colors: larger front door, brown doors. (yes, this version too should have brown doors. And I'd call this variant "luxury" coz it was more attractive, unless I find additional info). Just take some passengers out and add loading amount.

This way we'd keep one company colored livery and we'd add one more variant with the needed historical accuracy.

O/c the 3-axle versions don't need to be modified, as Viberti was the only manufacturer to build a bodywork for them. They're great as they are.

[George]

Well, all my attempts to draw Fiat 411 Cansa were unsuccessful. The scale is very low to make correct windows sizes. So, there would be only Viberti version. You should choose what liveries would be used for it.
About the triple-door version. Are you sure that it was produced by Cansa? Unfortunately, I can draw only Viberti version windows. But I want triple-door model. How bad would it be if It would have wrong windows?
About the billings. Can you suggest other place for player’s colours?

[Snail]

Well, all my attempts to draw Fiat 411 Cansa were unsuccessful. The scale is very low to make correct windows sizes. So, there would be only Viberti version. You should choose what liveries would be used for it.

Yeah, I see. I imagine the problem are the diagonal views, as windows are only one pixel long.
How about correcting just the two horizontal views? From the right side, halving the size of the last window would do it, and from the left side, you could lengthen the first window, (the reverse "D" shaped one), make the 2nd window appear between light-colored parts of the chassis to give the idea of a single window; then to couple together 3rd and 4th, 5th and 6th, 7th and 8th by using a combination of darker chassis parts between each couple; then half the ninth window's size, putting it between light chassis parts; and then couple 10th and 11th together, as they are now. That'd differentiate the model at least in one view. You would have to maintain the diagonal views as they are, but maybe you could invert the "coupling" of the Cansa's left part from the 1st to the 9th window.

What do you think? If you can implement this suggestion, then we could still have Cansa and Viberti variants, with the scheme I suggested earlier.
Otherwise, well, since it's just a model built on scale, we could simply have three variants: "411 2-axle" (four historical liveries), "411 2-axle (luxury)" (2-tones and monotonic company colors...would it be a prob to have them both?) and "411 3-axle" (same liveries as now).

About the billings. Can you suggest other place for player’s colours?

I don't really know. I guess the billings are just fine.

BTW, I just found two more pics of the "luxury" version. (You could even call it "wide door", it's up to you).

EDIT: George, I've just found another pic of the 411 Cansa with wide doors. This one is a side pic, shows the right side quite clearly, I hope you find it useful.

[George]

Well, all my attempts to draw Fiat 411 Cansa were unsuccessful. The scale is very low to make correct windows sizes. So, there would be only Viberti version. You should choose what liveries would be used for it.

Yeah, I see. I imagine the problem are the diagonal views, as windows are only one pixel long.
How about correcting just the two horizontal views?

I do not like the idea. you usually see the bus on a road in diagonal view

Otherwise, well, since it's just a model built on scale, we could simply have three variants: "411 2-axle" (four historical liveries), "411 2-axle (luxury)" (2-tones and monotonic company colors...would it be a prob to have them both?) and "411 3-axle" (same liveries as now).

I don't like the name 'luxury' here. Suggestions?

BTW, I just found two more pics of the "luxury" version. (You could even call it "wide door", it's up to you).

but the door is not 'wider', it has more parts... Could you find a photo with opened doors? or a schema?

[Spaceball]

I don't like the name 'luxury' here. Suggestions?

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cu, Spaceball

[George]

I don't like the name 'luxury' here. Suggestions?

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Why?