Chiltern to run West Midlands semi-fast services

[JamieLei]

I know a while ago the DfT was involved in asking Chiltern whether it wanted to take over operation of all of the Snow Hill trains, to which they declined. Flicking over the proposed timetable for this December (fastest journeys 2h00 or less from Birmingham to London Marylebone, fast from Biscester North, but originating at Moor Street bay platforms, NOT Snow Hill as expected), the main surprise is to see that they plan to run West Midlands local services from Moor Street at xx33, calling at Solihull, Dorridge, then all stations to Leamington Spa where it terminates and does the same in reverse. This would provide 3 fast trains an hour between Moor Street and Solihull.

It's scheduled to be operated with a 165. But I'm just wondering where they're getting this stock from. I doubt the 172s will be in operation by December. Secondly, this would be the first time that an hourly scheduled service would be run by Chiltern wholly outside the London commuter area.

When I used to have a girlfriend who lived in Solihull, I used the Chiltern fasts A LOT. The 3rd express would have been even more useful, although I can't complain since back in those days there was also a Virgin CrossCountry "fast" to New Street as well. ("Fast" since it was only marginally quicker than the all stations!)

Timetable: http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/news/ ... -timetable

[Chris]

It's scheduled to be operated with a 165. But I'm just wondering where they're getting this stock from. I doubt the 172s will be in operation by December. Secondly, this would be the first time that an hourly scheduled service would be run by Chiltern wholly outside the London commuter area.

Who knows where they will magic some stock from, but if more 165s are tied up on local services, then it means less will be on the fast runs between London and Birmingham .

[Ploes]

Who knows, but all the "Chiltern Mainline" stuff kicks off in early 2011.
Maybe all those mk3 coaches that they have been stockpiling will be ready for Birmingham to London runs?

[JamieLei]

Probably won't stop services being given the wrong stock though. All the Birmingham runs are set for 165s.

Secondly it'll probably mean less doubling-up of services. The last time I travelled Chiltern, it was only a 3-car service. Every other time in the morning, it's been doubled up, or sometimes reinforced with a 165.

Who knows, but all the "Chiltern Mainline" stuff kicks off in early 2011.
Maybe all those mk3 coaches that they have been stockpiling will be ready for Birmingham to London runs?

Completely forgot about that - good point

[Ploes]

Also who knows, maybe they could borrow some 165/1s to fill the gap as they wont need to be rigged up for TfL running on that route!

[Chris]

Along with the Chiltern Mainline stuff, they want to intoduce the mk3s on London-Birmingham runs and cascade 168s to other services, and with the addition of the 172s at some point, they would have enough stock. I think they might use as Ploes suggested some 165/1s to plug the gap.

[Ploes]

I know we shouldn't take wikipedia as "gold" but they says:

Chiltern Railways will obtain four two-car trains in the same order as that of London Overground to supplement the current Class 165 Networker Turbos on their routes from London Marylebone which will be delivered from late 2010. These trains will differ from the London Overground units with the addition of the ATP safety system, to make them compatible with the rest of the Chiltern fleet.[6] They will not have the tripcock safety system installed—unlike the rest of the Chiltern Railways fleet—as the design of the bogie being used (based on the B5005 found on Class 220 Voyager and Class 222 Meridian) trains means there is no place for the brackets to be mounted. Thus, they will not run on the Aylesbury line unless completely boxed in by units fitted with a tripcock to the front and rear.

Make sense that these 172s would find a home on routes that don't go near London then!

[Dave]

I know we shouldn't take wikipedia as "gold" but they says:

Chiltern Railways will obtain four two-car trains in the same order as that of London Overground to supplement the current Class 165 Networker Turbos on their routes from London Marylebone which will be delivered from late 2010. These trains will differ from the London Overground units with the addition of the ATP safety system, to make them compatible with the rest of the Chiltern fleet.[6] They will not have the tripcock safety system installed—unlike the rest of the Chiltern Railways fleet—as the design of the bogie being used (based on the B5005 found on Class 220 Voyager and Class 222 Meridian) trains means there is no place for the brackets to be mounted. Thus, they will not run on the Aylesbury line unless completely boxed in by units fitted with a tripcock to the front and rear.

Make sense that these 172s would find a home on routes that don't go near London then!

Not really, as the tripcock system is only used to Aylesbury, can run everywhere else. Could be used for Stratford-Leam services.

[Chris]

Not really, as the tripcock system is only used to Aylesbury, can run everywhere else. Could be used for Stratford-Leam services.

Indeed, possible London orientated routes for them would be:

*The proposed 4tph service from Marylebone to West Ruislip
*Marylebone-Aylesbury via High Wycombe
*Marylebone-High Wycombe
*Marylebone-Bicester North/Stratford-upon-Avon
*Marylebone-Princes Risborough.

[Ploes]

Right you are chapps. I'd got it wrong in my head thinking they needed tripcocks to get to Marylebone from the Wycombe side also.

[Dave]

Not really, as the tripcock system is only used to Aylesbury, can run everywhere else. Could be used for Stratford-Leam services.

Indeed, possible London orientated routes for them would be:

*The proposed 4tph service from Marylebone to West Ruislip
*Marylebone-Aylesbury via High Wycombe
*Marylebone-High Wycombe
*Marylebone-Bicester North/Stratford-upon-Avon
*Marylebone-Princes Risborough.

And they WILL find their way to Birmingham.

[Chris]

And they WILL find their way to Birmingham.

Never said they wouldn't . I think that they will mostly be around the Birmingham end really.

[JamieLei]

Nah - we see mainly 168s round here. It's only annoying because every train is booked for a 168 (currently) but 165s end up on them because they're timed for them

Once we see proper 100mph paths, there'll be no more 165s on express services.

[Dave]

No you definitely won't see 165/172s up in Birmingham. Definitely not. Ever. Without a shadow of a doubt. I'll have a fiver that there's one at Snow Hill in the first week of the new timetable whenever it is.

[JamieLei]

I'd be surprised if a 75mph unit was used for a 100mph path. Although 158s were used on Central CityLink services, owing to their much faster acceleration...

[Dave]

I'd be surprised if a 75mph unit was used for a 100mph path. Although 158s were used on Central CityLink services, owing to their much faster acceleration...

Nah you never see that, do you? 110 220s used on 221 routes, anyone? Definitely will happen if there's a shortage of vehicles, which there has been quite a lot under Chiltern.

You'd do well to accept it as a given - s*** like that's been going on for years. Pacer on an interurban diagram from Plymouth booked for 90mph 158s?

[JamieLei]

Yeah but there's a difference between being booked for a unit and being timed for a unit. LM could easily run 350s up the WCML and 321s down the (stopping) WCML services without too much hastle. But Virgin wouldn't be able to substitute their Mk3 set for a Glasgow Pendo diagram, even with the extra slack involved, hence why they only shuttle to Brum and back, which has enough slack to allow the 15mph differential.

Currently I believe that almost all the 168 diagrams are timed for 165s.

[Dave]

Yeah but there's a difference between being booked for a unit and being timed for a unit. LM could easily run 350s up the WCML and 321s down the (stopping) WCML services without too much hastle. But Virgin wouldn't be able to substitute their Mk3 set for a Glasgow Pendo diagram, even with the extra slack involved, hence why they only shuttle to Brum and back, which has enough slack to allow the 15mph differential.

Currently I believe that almost all the 168 diagrams are timed for 165s.

Except the Pretendolino is intended to be used on the Friday Relief diagram that runs Euston-Preston FO services (and only cover other than that), only at the minute they can't do that as they're a Pendo short so use it on the EBW turns, and sub a Voyager for the relief run. They had the Pretendolino ready for use and had it running for all of three weeks before the mishap in London that cost them three Pendolinos - one for a few days, one for a few weeks, and one which is still struggling now.

I don't see how you think Birmingham will exclusively become 168/67 territory - there's no way there won't be a 165 up there before long, especially if there's a major balls up near London and there are units everywhere, and what happens to Stratford services if the 168s are dedicated to Brum diagrams - there'll have to be the odd appearance at Moor Street regardless.

There's not a difference between being booked and being timed anyway - if a service is booked for a 390, it's timed for a 390, with very few exceptions. And there are at least two 110mph paths in the WCML system (there used to be one Voyager booked slow line for massive lol, I'm sure) - there will be at least one slower path on CH's.

[audigex]

I'd be surprised if a 75mph unit was used for a 100mph path. Although 158s were used on Central CityLink services, owing to their much faster acceleration...

Nah you never see that, do you? 110 220s used on 221 routes, anyone? Definitely will happen if there's a shortage of vehicles, which there has been quite a lot under Chiltern.

You'd do well to accept it as a given - s*** like that's been going on for years. Pacer on an interurban diagram from Plymouth booked for 90mph 158s?

I was about to say (To Jamie), that using a 90mph 158 on a 100mph run isn't the same as a 75mph.

It happens all the time though, as Dave said. As long as it accellerates well it'll usually be handled by the slack built into any timetable... the problems arise when they lose time and can't make it up.

[Ploes]

Does anyone know if Chiltern even have any locos yet?

I know they have the 5 W&S Class 67s, but someone's made the wiki page look like they have 5 Chiltern ones. Don't really see how that can be the case if only 30 were ever built!