DB buys Arriva

[61653]

Might solve the problem of the proposed Aberystwyth-London service: Now that Arriva & WSMR are both owned by DB, WSMR can't really object any more. The service could even be operated by WSMR using the 67/Mk3 sets rather than a sexed-up 158...

WSMR weren't the only objectees, and 67's aren't ERTMS fitted (and I suspect it'd be too expensive to fit it to them too)

It'd never happen these days of course, but one of NRs 97/3s (though it'd need ETH fitted) could haul a portion to join the existing WSMR service at Shrewsbury, though shunting to join wouldn't be easy, with the Aber service arriving from the south, and the Wrexham portion arriving from the North...

Also, a 'WalesRail' style livery similar to the Scottish scheme would be good, as long as they got it right- anythings better than FG Purple or Arriva turquiose though.

[JamieLei]

Might solve the problem of the proposed Aberystwyth-London service: Now that Arriva & WSMR are both owned by DB, WSMR can't really object any more. The service could even be operated by WSMR using the 67/Mk3 sets rather than a sexed-up 158...

Aber - London service has been rejected by NR.

[welshdragon]

From http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1004d.htm:

Arriva goes German
It looks definite now that the Arriva group, with its bus and train operations in various countries, including of course our own Arriva Trains Wales and many of the buses in our area, is to merge with the German nationalised railway, Deutsche Bahn. The DB press release (read in full at this link) tells us that: 'Arriva's headquarters will remain in Sunderland. DB will also continue its close relationship with Arriva's current management. In addition, the Arriva brand will be retained outside Germany.' So it would seem that DB red will not be seen on British passenger trains, at least initially. The price being paid for all this is £1.59 billion pounds; under the conditions of British rail franchising, this does not actually include any lines, stations, or trains, which are all leased. Presumably it does include the 'LNWR' maintenance operation at Crewe which Arriva bought from Peter Waterman a couple of years ago.

It will be interesting to see whether Arriva Trains Wales operations will be merged in any way with Chiltern Trains, already owned by DB, and/or Wrexham & Shropshire, of which DB is a major shareholder. Hiring locos from DB Schenker should also be facilitated. We hear that W&S train crew have been 'learning the road' on the North Wales Coast for reasons not clear at the time of writing.

[Nawdic]

What I want to know, are DB keeping the Arriva brand name or are they changing it?

[JamieLei]

What I want to know, are DB keeping the Arriva brand name or are they changing it?

Read up - we've already discussed this! (And we don't know...)

[Nawdic]

Fair enough... If they keep the old name, i would think that they wouldnt have put that much effort into their new investment.

[Kevo00]

Fair enough... If they keep the old name, i would think that they wouldnt have put that much effort into their new investment.

Not nessescarily. The Arriva brand is better established among users where Arriva runs trains and busses, if not universally well loved. DB's isn't. Its simply a branding strategy, has no bearing on investment. Coca-cola still invest in selling Fanta and Sprite even though they aren't branded Coca-cola, McDonalds funded the expansion of the Pret a Monger chain, WHSmith the same with Waterstones...the list of business school cases goes on and on...

[michael blunck]

One of the interesting facts is that Arriva plc and DB Schenker Rail Polska are already in a joint venture ("Arriva PCC") in Poland (since 2006/7). Also, Arriva´s activities in Denmark and (to a lesser degree) in the Netherlands could be of specific strategic interest for the DB in the long term.

But by far the most important point seems to be the rivalry DB/Schenker vs SNCF/Keolis. IMO, it´s a purely strategic move, not an economically sound decision, given the high price for Arriva, the untypical structure of the company, the expensive licenses, and the shortcomings of the DB itself in its home market.

It would be interesting to see how Arriva will be re-structured (incl parts of the company resold) during the next years.

regards
Michael

[JamieLei]

The last thing I'd want to see is rebranding for the sake of rebranding. Such as the disastrous (in my opinion) rebrand of all the National Express divisions a few years back. Honestly, what does the circuit board style have to do with anything to do with transport? One, c2c and Travel West Midlands were all much better liveries and brands (the fact that TWM combined rebranding with refreshing and deployment of hundreds of spanking new buses softened the blow somewhat, but it lost the slightly-tacky feel especially of the Cosmos Font, but all the same "local" feel when they all went corporate). Plus, National Express + Suffix is such a mouthful that noone what to call each division. N-X-E-C / N-X-E-A rolled off the tongue, but here in the Midlands, 8/10 people still call the buses "Travel West Midlands", those that don't call it "West Midlands", barely anyone calls them "National Express West Midlands" and the live bus departure boards seem to alternate the abbreviations between TWM, NXWM, NXWB, WMNX, and so on so noone has any idea what company's bus is coming!

On another topic, DB did rebrand the "Englsh, Welsh and Scottish Railway" to "Deutsche Bahn Schenker" (bet the Daily Mail had a field day at that one...) - but I'd be surprised they did any more than just slap on the DB logo in a corner of the train next to the driver.

Also interestingly, in Stockholm, MTR (Hong Hong Metro) run the Tunnelbana (Metro). All the staff wear not Tunnelbana or SL (kinda the equivalent of TfL) uniforms, but rather MTR uniforms. On the London Overground, they do the same but behind the front of LOROL.

[Nawdic]

If they just changed the livery, ill be fine with that, but to be honest, they have a lot of work to do in London, with Arriva being rated the worst bus operator in London

[Dave]

On another topic, DB did rebrand the "Englsh, Welsh and Scottish Railway" to "Deutsche Bahn Schenker" (bet the Daily Mail had a field day at that one...) - but I'd be surprised they did any more than just slap on the DB logo in a corner of the train next to the driver.

There are a number of locomotives already in DB Schenker red.

[JamieLei]

On another topic, DB did rebrand the "Englsh, Welsh and Scottish Railway" to "Deutsche Bahn Schenker" (bet the Daily Mail had a field day at that one...) - but I'd be surprised they did any more than just slap on the DB logo in a corner of the train next to the driver.

There are a number of locomotives already in DB Schenker red.

Sorry, what I meant to say was that I'd be surprised, regarding Chiltern or CrossCountry, that they'd do any more than just slap a DB logo on them next do the cab door. ATW I have no idea - would be fun to see them painted up in DB Corporate Red.

Personally I think the DB freight looks better than EWS but that's just my opinion.

[welshdragon]

*sigh* Am I completely ignored?

From http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1004d.htm:

Arriva goes German
It looks definite now that the Arriva group, with its bus and train operations in various countries, including of course our own Arriva Trains Wales and many of the buses in our area, is to merge with the German nationalised railway, Deutsche Bahn. The DB press release (read in full at this link) tells us that: 'Arriva's headquarters will remain in Sunderland. DB will also continue its close relationship with Arriva's current management. In addition, the Arriva brand will be retained outside Germany.' So it would seem that DB red will not be seen on British passenger trains, at least initially. The price being paid for all this is £1.59 billion pounds; under the conditions of British rail franchising, this does not actually include any lines, stations, or trains, which are all leased. Presumably it does include the 'LNWR' maintenance operation at Crewe which Arriva bought from Peter Waterman a couple of years ago.

It will be interesting to see whether Arriva Trains Wales operations will be merged in any way with Chiltern Trains, already owned by DB, and/or Wrexham & Shropshire, of which DB is a major shareholder. Hiring locos from DB Schenker should also be facilitated. We hear that W&S train crew have been 'learning the road' on the North Wales Coast for reasons not clear at the time of writing.

[michael blunck]

*sigh* Am I completely ignored?

From http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1004d.htm:

Not completely.

the supervisory board approved the deal following intense discussions and an independent valuation report from a major bank.

Would be really interesting to take a look into that "report". And who´s that "major bank"? Goldman-Sachs anyone?

regards
Michael

[61653]

There already has been a backroom merger of sorts between Chiltern & WSMR (since DB took ownership), notably the track access agreements or something i think...

[Kevo00]

WSMR staff learning the North Wales road was probably going on before this merger was announced, with a view to 67 spot hires or similar. Doubt it was part of a masterplan.

On a purely aesthetic level, I wouldn't mind seeing DB red buses trundling past my house rather than those strange Arriva green ones.

[audigex]

I can't see them rebranding the buses - it'd be an un-necessary expense.

Re-branding the trains might make more sense: I belive Virgin had better brand awareness even when they didn't make much of the Cross Country route names than XC do now. A uniform branding might make some sense where there's overlap.

Buses doesn't make as much sense since a bus journey tends to be independant of other journeys: nobody much cares.

The fact is that rebranding costs money to raise awareness: why bother when the current brand is working okay?

[Dave]

There already has been a backroom merger of sorts between Chiltern & WSMR (since DB took ownership), notably the track access agreements or something i think...

Hardly a merger, since WSMR is part-owned by Laing Rail, who are owned by DB Schenker.

[JamieLei]

As far as I know, the only differences are that WSMR now call at Leamington Spa, and that passengers can now permitted to Leamington and Banbury to travel south to London. Also one of the DVTs have been painted in a Chiltern livery. (link)

[Dave]

Chiltern are taking a number of the carriages/DVTs used by W&S for an express loco-hauled service from the new terminii platforms at Birmingham Moor Street, if the rumours are to be believed.