Another Daylength patch

[pecX]

i tested some production factors from 1/1 to 1/20 on 20x game speed but towns were growing always in the same speed.

I think i will download now a max-townpopulation patch

[W_neun]

Hi Pavel1269!

I'd like to make a few suggestions to your daylength patch, hoping at least some of them will be implemented.
Firstly, could you make a switch to reduce the cargo payments, to compensate the higher profit? I know that there is an option to decrease the industry production, but I don't like that way of reducing the income - your vehicles are spending most of their time waiting for cargo at stations, this just makes the game slower, I don't think most of the players'd like it. By reducing only the payment for delivery, and not the industry production, the game would be as fast as normally; your vehicles would be traveling much more, but you wouldn't get so high profits per year as with the other daylength patch, where you can't lower neither the industry production, nor the payments, only the multiplied running cost should compensate for it. (And this would be more realistic, too, for those who like that, seeing a vehicle would need to transport much more cargo to bring back its buying cost and make some profit). I can't code but I think it wouldn't be hard to make it, I guess you would need to make only a variable by what every payment would be divided.
Furthermore, it would be good if you'd make a switch for the rate of town growth and the frequency of changes in industry production, again to keep the game a bit more challenging with increased daylength.
The increased loading time, which is now default with the reduced production, should be optional.
It would be best if all of these would be optional separately, so everyone could use only what he/she wants, like Eddi said a few posts above, more configurability can only add to the popularity of a patch/game.

As for your current version, it looked good when I tried it, but found a few bugs: the loan interest was always higher than it should have been, the industry information window showed wrong production values, and it seemed like passenger/mail generation in towns was not affected by the production factor switch.

Thanks for reading, all comments are welcome, sorry for any mistakes, hope you have understood.

[pavel1269]

i tested some production factors from 1/1 to 1/20 on 20x game speed but towns were growing always in the same speed.

this souds like poor bug, i know, that i changed that .... will look at it

Firstly, could you make a switch to reduce the cargo payments, to compensate the higher profit? I know that there is an option to decrease the industry production, but I don't like that way of reducing the income - your vehicles are spending most of their time waiting for cargo at stations, this just makes the game slower, I don't think most of the players'd like it.

This was my goal, to slow down the game. Less cargo produced at all, but all other things are balanced. Also i know, that that this feature wouldnt be very popular. But i know many people who like it a lot.

By reducing only the payment for delivery, and not the industry production, the game would be as fast as normally; your vehicles would be traveling much more, but you wouldn't get so high profits per year as with the other daylength patch, where you can't lower neither the industry production, nor the payments, only the multiplied running cost should compensate for it. (And this would be more realistic, too, for those who like that, seeing a vehicle would need to transport much more cargo to bring back its buying cost and make some profit). I can't code but I think it wouldn't be hard to make it, I guess you would need to make only a variable by what every payment would be divided.

Almost same you can get with setting daylength factor and production factor to same number ie 20 and 1/20 and you have it ... . 20 times slower time and 20times slower production. Not the same i know, very similar. But train will travel less a lot .... will look at it future

Furthermore, it would be good if you'd make a switch for the rate of town growth and the frequency of changes in industry production, again to keep the game a bit more challenging with increased daylength.

Well, with any setting you do, industries and towns grow/appear/change production at same speed. (Not exactly same, but ... in real time same)
If you want even less town grow/other changes .... another patch should resolve that. Not this one.

The increased loading time, which is now default with the reduced production, should be optional.

Will do.

the loan interest was always higher than it should have been

Dont get this one, will test it.

the industry information window showed wrong production values

Not wrong, but original. I hated a lot, when i see a mine producting 3450tons. Is that okay or very low? Or even high? .... Will do a option for this .

it seemed like passenger/mail generation in towns was not affected by the production factor switch.

Thanks for this one.

Thanks for feedback so far.

[W_neun]

Hi!

Thanks for considering some new options.
As for the payment reduction or cargo reduction, I think these wouldn't be very similar in gameplay, only in the effect on the profit per year. You say you and many people like the current method more, and I have no problem with that, but I think many players would like the other way, too. For me, this game is about building good routes, the more the traffic on them, the more challanging, the more fun, but with less cargo you won't need many vehicles, and even those will be waiting at stations most of the game.

i tested some production factors from 1/1 to 1/20 on 20x game speed but towns were growing always in the same speed.

this souds like poor bug, i know, that i changed that .... will look at it

Well, with any setting you do, industries and towns grow/appear/change production at same speed. (Not exactly same, but ... in real time same)

I don't quite understand this, can you slow down the town growth now or not? Or only the town growth, but not the industry production growth?

About the bugs - I tested the patch a bit longer, and found that the loan interest isn't buggy, you only made it depend on the daylength and production values, along with some other expenses, and they show different amounts only when the daylength and production values are not equal or inversely proportional (attached screenshot). But I think that increasing the costs is not the right way for balancing a daylength patch, since then you would need to change every single cost. I think a better way is decreasing the income, either with the cargo reduction or the payment reduction. Furthermore, those players, who want only increased daylength, but want to make the same profit in real time as in a normal game, wouldn't like these fixed setings, so again, if you can, better make them configurable.
About the displayed production values: I knew that they are the original values, just didn't know whether this was intended, and I know that you can get the actual monthly production by multiplying the shown value with the set daylength value and dividing it with the set production value, but would be nice to see the actual production in the window. I think that rather the normal amounts are a bit funny, like a mine producing 80 tonnes of coal per month, seeing that famous Stakhanov mined more than 200 tons of coal in a single day already in the '30s .

Thanks for reading.

no bug.png (6.75 KiB) Viewed 6874 times

[pavel1269]

So additional options
- Show original production rates (type: bool)(default: true)
- Slow down loading with production factor (bool)(true)

- Reduce payment rates with daylength factor
I think, bool is wrong way for this option. If you want 10x slower gametime and not 10x cargo delivery payments? Another uint?

But I think that increasing the costs is not the right way for balancing a daylength patch, since then you would need to change every single cost. I think a better way is decreasing the income, either with the cargo reduction or the payment reduction. Furthermore, those players, who want only increased daylength, but want to make the same profit in real time as in a normal game, wouldn't like these fixed setings, so again, if you can, better make them configurable.

With lets say daylength 5x. You pay every single expense with multiplier 5x. And your trains will do the same trip 5x more times so more income. Finaly. In game-year you will make "just" 5x more. In real time, its still same. So in my eyes, its perfectly balanced. Also the new option is considered

I very much appreciate you feedback. Thanks.

[W_neun]

In your example you'd make the same profit in game year, and less profit in real time. But anyway, your patch already has a way for profit reducing, and like I said, there are players who want only increased daylength, so they can use the different vehicle types for a longer time, but wanna make the same money in real time as with normal game speed. They wouldn't use the reduced production, but wouldn't like the increased costs, either, since these two things have the same purpose. So, if you would like to include more methods for decreasing the profit, great, but you should make this increased costs method optional as well. (And I thought that the increased costs idea would be harder because you should multiply every single cost, like cost of construction, new vehicles etc.)
As for my decreased payments suggestion - like I said, I can't code, so can't help you how to make it .

[Eddi]

in my opinion, if you have the choice of increasing costs vs. decreasing income to rebalance the yearly profit, tweak the income, because it is more likely that someone has spent effort to make costs "realistic" (e.g. historically correct building costs for vehicles)

[pavel1269]

With increasing (in truth decreasing ... 1/1 to 1/x), you will make less profit in real time. And even in game time.
With increasing daylength, you will make same profit in real time. But more in game time.
With aviable option to decrease payment rates ( with dalyength factor ). You will get less profit in real time. And same profit in game time. It this what do you want? Because, I still dont understand you sentence about making same money in real time as in game time. In my eyes not possible.
Also i dont see, why should building costs should be multipied.
And dont worry about, that you cant code. I should if i want to release some feature

EDIT:
Or you want to choose, between multipling running cost vs reducing cargo payments?

[pecX]

I think he just wants reduced cargo payments + normal cargo production and loading.
i.e. option to chose 10x daylength + 1/10 payment + 1/1 industrial production. Seems to be a good idea of an option to chose.
and if someone wants a hard challenge he could chose then i.e. 10x daylength + 1/10 payment + 1/10 industrial production

All i still want is the town growth to be fixed... I had a city which grew at daylength 20x in 3 years from 6k to 34k.... I dont wanna think about how big it would be after 10 years

[W_neun]

Quick answers:

With increasing (in truth decreasing ... 1/1 to 1/x), you will make less profit in real time. And even in game time.

True, of course (assuming that you are talking about the cargo reduction)

With increasing daylength, you will make same profit in real time. But more in game time.

True, as well.

With aviable option to decrease payment rates ( with dalyength factor ). You will get less profit in real time. And same profit in game time. It this what do you want?

Yes, that is exactly what I want.

Because, I still dont understand you sentence about making same money in real time as in game time. In my eyes not possible.

Yes, it's impossible, but I don't see I said anything like this in my posts.

Also i dont see, why should building costs should be multipied.

See below.

Or you want to choose, between multipling running cost vs reducing cargo payments?

Yes, see below.

A bit longer explanation, I hope this will make clear what I think a daylength patch should look like:

When you increase the daylength, you will deliver more cargo in the same game time. This will result much higher profit, even easier gameplay. Some players like this. For those, who see this too easy and boring, you need to decrease the profit. You can achieve this with:
1) Increasing the costs
2) Decreasing the income

If you want to keep the costs/income ratio of the normal game, by using the cost increasing method, you need to increase the cost of everything. That DOES include the buying cost of vehicles, cost of building bridges, railways, cost of landscaping etc., because the profit is income minus expenditures, so if you won't make all costs higher, you WILL make more profit in game time with increased daylength. Of course, you can say it's not much of a problem, it is not so important to keep the income/costs ratio of the normal game. But another reason why I think this wouldn't be the best solution is that it could be a bit annoying that you see different costs every time you play with different daylength setting. (The inflation causes similar problems, and I don't like it, either) Furthermore, I think the other methods are easier to implement. You can keep this method in your patch, even in its current form, but make it optional. At the moment it isn't, instead depends on the daylength and production variables, as seen in the screenshot above.

But I think a way better and easier soulution would be the second one, decreasing the income. It can be done via:
1) Decreasing the production
2) Decreasing the payments

Like I said, if you reduce the production, your vehicles will be mostly waiting at stations, while with reduced payments, they will move as much as normally. So I vote for the latter. The two methods would also have a bit different effect on the station rating. With the former you can have better station rating, since there won't ever be much cargo waiting at the station, while with the latter, especially at the start of the game, you may not be able to transport all cargo. Also, you would spend a bit more on buying vehicles since you would need more of them. But I think this wouldn't be a problem for most of the players, and if it would be too hard, you could still play with some easier settings.
In the current patch only the production reducing method is included. There are two problems with it at the moment, firstly, it also increases the loading time, and secondly, doesn't reduce the passenger/mail production in towns, but I have already reported these.

So, the summary of my thoughts:
Increased costs - not the best way, currently included in an incomplete form (i.e. just a few costs are changed), and is not optional - it should be.
Decreased production - included and is optional, it does not affect affect towns, however.
Decreased payments - not implemented yet.
Increased loading time - included, should be optional, now is not.

And finally, like pecX said, it would be good to have an option to slow down the town growth and the frequency of production changes in industries.
I know you said...

Well, with any setting you do, industries and towns grow/appear/change production at same speed. (Not exactly same, but ... in real time same)
If you want even less town grow/other changes .... another patch should resolve that. Not this one.

...but I think a daylength patch should include it. If you can, and have time for it, do it. It can only make your patch more popular.

[chrissicom]

Unfortunately this patch does not work with a clean checkout of 16025. All industries produce 0 after a few moments in the game no matter which settings I use.

[pavel1269]

Another update

Removed all known bugs and added one. The problem bilbo explained. Its there since create, but i didnt know how to reproduce that. Finaly i know, where the problem is. The new bug is simple and easy to reproduce. I removed most of bad behaviour but now..... Start new game. Let time to take like 2months. Its enought. Quit game. Start new one. On 1. february ALL industries will produce double. Then standart behaviour, but this .... will look at it. At least it dont go to 0 production. But ....

The balancing as W_neun explained. The part, which slow down the economy is not balancing this patch. Its there just for slowing down whole game (less cargo and so on). If you set it to same as daylength, it is a bit balancing, but it wasnt the idea. I found it is another patch, which should have its own thread.

Also, roadmap for next version: make choosable balancing option (none, running costs(current), cost of everything, lower payments), remove the bug

And finaly whats new:
- Options:
Slow down loading at stations with Production Factor
Show original production value of industry
Slow down town growth with daylength factor
- Performance of company requirements now also depends on factors
- Dont remember more

edit: forget about lowering payments

[chrissicom]

That's interesting, the 0 production bug only exists in multiplayer. In a single player game fast forward for a few years, everything goes fine. When I open a multiplayer game (no matter if I am alone or people joined) the production will go to 0 on all industries within the first month. Sometimes I see a production increase to 12 but then it immediately goes back to 0. This bug does not exist without your patch.

I decided now that I will just hardcode a daylength factor of 3 (i.e. DAY_TICKS = 222) and multiply vehicle running costs by 3. That will do it for multiplayer without AI I find that 3 is the perfect daylength for having a slow game where new vehicles don't appear every 10 minutes of gameplay and it's also not too slow. 100 game years equal around 67,5 hours with this daylength factor.

[pavel1269]

That's interesting, the 0 production bug only exists in multiplayer. In a single player game fast forward for a few years, everything goes fine. When I open a multiplayer game (no matter if I am alone or people joined) the production will go to 0 on all industries within the first month. Sometimes I see a production increase to 12 but then it immediately goes back to 0. This bug does not exist without your patch.

false and true

It does exists in singleplayer also. But the bug appear only after some game. So if you teste singleplayer mode, okay. But you had a game, and you started a game and? Ohhh bug
Try newer version .... hope you havent found him there :-O

[W_neun]

Hello!

I have tested your patch a bit longer, and found a bug: the vehicle types get obsolete in the same real time, no matter what daylength you use. The introduction dates are correct, though, so after a few years playing you can't buy any vehicles, because the old ones are no longer available, but there are no new models yet (especially if you play with higher daylength values).

P.S.

roadmap for next version: make choosable balancing option (none, running costs(current), cost of everything, lower payments), remove the bug

edit: forget about lowering payments

Does this mean that you are still developing this patch (and are planning to add some new options)? Or... was this just a joke?

[pavel1269]

I have tested your patch a bit longer, and found a bug: the vehicle types get obsolete in the same real time, no matter what daylength you use. The introduction dates are correct, though, so after a few years playing you can't buy any vehicles, because the old ones are no longer available, but there are no new models yet (especially if you play with higher daylength values).

Thought i removed that bug .... thanks for reporting!

roadmap for next version: make choosable balancing option (none, running costs(current), cost of everything, lower payments), remove the bug
edit: forget about lowering payments

Does this mean that you are still developing this patch (and are planning to add some new options)? Or... was this just a joke?

At the moment, i have almost ready version with the first thing on road map, no joke .... ,but now, i am thinking about changing whole patch ....

[2007Alain2007]

your realy doing a great job with this patch there must be tons of things that need slowing down but keep on at it well done

[CB0T]

Thanks! I m looking for this!

I must use the 2 files? Or one file only.

What variables do I edit for a dedicated server?



Edit:

Code: Select all

daylength_factor = 1
production_factor = 1
slow_down_loading = true
show_orig_productions = true
slow_down_town_growth = false

[speedy64]

great patch

used it with a slightly new build and firstly all seems fine
playing with north american renewall trainset in multiplayer - started in 1870 with daylength 5:1 but industry 1:1 and rest off - so that only the years are going on slower (dont like it that the trains in mid/late-game are introduced in a year and then are outdated nearly before u could change to them... we wanted a slightly long round with much time in lategame also
anything was nice - but step by step it seems that there is a problem with the train-renewing/runtime? we are in year 1887 (played alltime @5:1) and nearly all old waggons are outdated and cant be build, but the new ones will be introduced in 1890 or 1895... so we have now about 5 years without the possibility of building waggons for coal, livestock, grain,... only wood, goods, passengers and mail left. not funny
with trains seems same: the 4-4-0 was introduced far infront of our gamestart and should be updated to "heavy" in 1885, but its outdated already years before 1885 and no update till 1887 to see.

dont know if its a problem with the patch or with the trainset - but havent recognized such a problem before...

maybe someone could help?

[pavel1269]

Hello,

Nice to see you like the patch. The bug you described is my fault . At the moment, I dont have much time to work at it. But as soon as I finish my current work, I'll look at it