ECS vectors v1.1.2 (by George) 19/06/2011

[George]

However, there is one thing I'm not sure whether it's a feature or I'm doing something wrong. Coal mines seem to be hyperactive in my game! I get 1000+t coal mines very early in the game.

In beta 4 it was much harder to make mines' production grow, and many users were asking to make it easier. So, I made it easier in beta 5.
I also find it too easy now, but looks like other users like it. I do not know how to manage it well. Any ideas?

It wouldn't be that bad if I had nowhere to transport all that coal to but I do. The power plant seems to accept very large (infinite?) amounts of coal. My friend and I are trying to set up a long term multiplayer game and this kind of makes it get boring quickly.

No, power plants acceptance is limited.

So what I'm asking is, is this the way ECS vectors are supposed to work? Iron mines produce half as much and it's still a lot. Is there any way to lower the production amounts or that's just the way it is?

Well, I can review multipliers as soon as someone would suggest other values. Just to remind, max production of secondary industries was divided by 4 already. So, I see no problem to divide primary industries too. Also, I have a plan to provide smaller industries for the earlier years, with the lower production and capacity.

Summery: Suggest other values and they would be a point for discussion.

[Rainer]

Hi Rista,

However, there is one thing I'm not sure whether it's a feature or I'm doing something wrong. Coal mines seem to be hyperactive in my game! I get 1000+t coal mines very early in the game. It wouldn't be that bad if I had nowhere to transport all that coal to but I do. The power plant seems to accept very large (infinite?) amounts of coal. My friend and I are trying to set up a long term multiplayer game and this kind of makes it get boring quickly.

So what I'm asking is, is this the way ECS vectors are supposed to work? Iron mines produce half as much and it's still a lot. Is there any way to lower the production amounts or that's just the way it is? Thanks.

If you play with all vectors, you will need that much coal soon. To produce vehicles you need Steel (Iron+Coal), Glass (Sand+Coal) and Dye. Also the coal mine will be empty sooner or later so you have to open a backup mine, too.

The best is to create a transfer station in the middle of nowhere to store excessive coal, iron sand, etc. and to distribute them to the industries which need it.

cu
Rainer

[Rista]

In beta 4 it was much harder to make mines' production grow, and many users were asking to make it easier. So, I made it easier in beta 5.
I also find it too easy now, but looks like other users like it. I do not know how to manage it well. Any ideas?

Beta 5 are the only ones I've tried. I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to newgrfs Not to TTD though. I'm going to download the beta 4 versions to try them out and will come back with my opinions.

No, power plants acceptance is limited.

This may be a stupid question but how do I find out how much coal are power plants able to accept? I have read the wiki documentation page but couldn't find that info. I tried a test game where I connected 4 very high producing coal mines and the power plant just kept accepting us much coal as I wanted. I guess it becomes a problem later in the game but in my opinion it is too much of an advantage in the beggining as I don't really have to worry about stockpiles for a long time unlike my friend who, for example, chooses to concentrate on wood vectors.

Well, I can review multipliers as soon as someone would suggest other values. Just to remind, max production of secondary industries was divided by 4 already. So, I see no problem to divide primary industries too. Also, I have a plan to provide smaller industries for the earlier years, with the lower production and capacity.

Summery: Suggest other values and they would be a point for discussion.

I haven't really played many games with ECS so these are just my initial impressions. I will do some testing with beta 4 and beta 5 versions to see the differences and will then post my opinions and suggestions. Either way, I really appreciate the hard work you've put into this to make the game more enjoyable and fun.

If you play with all vectors, you will need that much coal soon. To produce vehicles you need Steel (Iron+Coal), Glass (Sand+Coal) and Dye. Also the coal mine will be empty sooner or later so you have to open a backup mine, too.

The best is to create a transfer station in the middle of nowhere to store excessive coal, iron sand, etc. and to distribute them to the industries which need it.

Hi Rainer. I use all vectors but agricultural and construction ones and I still find it excessive. For example:


I started the game in 1920 and this coal mine is already producing 999 tonnes per month. Without ECS vectors, it would take a very long time for someone like that to happen. I understand I need more coal now and perhaps I'm looking at it the wrong way but instead of more challenging, it makes the game easier for me

[Hamilton2007]

I don't have that problem with ECS.

[George]

No, power plants acceptance is limited.

This may be a stupid question but how do I find out how much coal are power plants able to accept?

Code: Select all

coal = level * (max (cur_year - 1920 , 5) + 20) / 10

that means 2880 tons a month in 1921-th.
You can see production level of the power plant in the industry window. As soon as it reaches 100% it achieves the limit.

I haven't really played many games with ECS so these are just my initial impressions. I will do some testing with beta 4 and beta 5 versions to see the differences and will then post my opinions and suggestions.

In beta 4 you had to have higher transportations ratings, which were very hard to achieve in the early years. New values are very low, so it is rather easy to achieve production grow.

If you play with all vectors, you will need that much coal soon. To produce vehicles you need Steel (Iron+Coal), Glass (Sand+Coal) and Dye. Also the coal mine will be empty sooner or later so you have to open a backup mine, too.

yes, you should think about capacity too. In beta 4 it was a big problem because of high transportation level required for capacity change. In beta 5 capacity change is almost independent from transportation.

I started the game in 1920 and this coal mine is already producing 999 tonnes per month. Without ECS vectors, it would take a very long time for someone like that to happen. I understand I need more coal now and perhaps I'm looking at it the wrong way but instead of more challenging, it makes the game easier for me

Nice to see that some one else thinks it too easy. But most users do not. What to do?

[Hamilton2007]

Hm, since i'm playing with the daypatch i also got huge amounts on industries, forests with +800 tons production...

[Rista]

that means 2880 tons a month in 1921-th.
You can see production level of the power plant in the industry window. As soon as it reaches 100% it achieves the limit.

Thanks. That does mean that in practice stockpiling is not an issue with power plants, especially early in the game.

In beta 4 you had to have higher transportations ratings, which were very hard to achieve in the early years. New values are very low, so it is rather easy to achieve production grow.

That actually sounds pretty good to me. I want the production levels to be relatively low in the early years and then grow depending on transportation ratings. I'm definitely going to try out the beta 4 vectors.

Nice to see that some one else thinks it too easy. But most users do not. What to do?

If most users are happy with it, it's best to leave it as it is, I guess. Perhaps it could somehow be made adjustable via parameters? Not sure how hard would that be to implement or if it's possible at all

[George]

Nice to see that some one else thinks it too easy. But most users do not. What to do?

If most users are happy with it, it's best to leave it as it is, I guess. Perhaps it could somehow be made adjustable via parameters? Not sure how hard would that be to implement or if it's possible at all

It is possible and relative easy, but a good concept should be provided first.

[Hamilton2007]

I removed the daypatch and my sources are back to normal, how is this possible George ? I kindda loved it when i got very large sources.

[Rainer]

Hi George,

Nice to see that some one else thinks it too easy. But most users do not. What to do?

A possible solution is to make numbers configurable so the users can be your beta testers Rista's proposal to make it easy to increase production in the lower levels and harder in the upper levels (of primary industries) seems very feasible to me.

BTW: Coal mines in top level produce nearly triple as much (2880 per month) as in the original TTD (1024), so there is an enormous difference between starting to serve them and some years later.
Anyway: the production collapses from earlier versions do not happen any longer and that is a great step forward to playability.

Keep on the good work.

cu
Rainer

[Hamilton2007]

How do you get those huge amount of production, at my game it's the normal production, i'm using version 5 to.

[PhilSophus]

Let me give my 2 cents on the production levels, too:

Having played with both beta4 and beta5 vector in OpenTTD I also consider beta5 too easy. On the other hand, I like its responsiveness as compared to beta4. I guess that both are kind of tied together, so any change requires careful tuning.

That said, these are my suggested cornerstones for production changes with OpenTTD rating calculation:

• Production should increase and be responsive at 66% rating, since that is what you get for perfect service with wagon speed limits and without statue.
• However it shouldn't increase too fast to ultimate levels with that rating, so maybe make the increment smaller for higher production levels (e.g. make it easy to reach up to 50%, but then make it harder and harder to increase more).
• Responsiveness for not coping with the amount of cargo should still be good. I think that means, below 48% the production should slowly start dropping (maybe also dependent on production level, so be more generous for low production levels).

A possible solution is to make numbers configurable so the users can be your beta testers

Indeed, it is always hard to estimate good values without trying, so providing the possibility to set some important points (such as ratings where the production starts dropping, starts increasing, production level where increment starts slowing down) would be a good thing at this point of time. The ECS vectors are quite stable, we hardly ever talk about bugs, but mostly about balancing. And a large parameter space can be better explored by a larger group of beta testers.

To limit the effort needed, these parameters need not be foolproof, just choose sensible values (like those corresponding to the current state) as default. If the experimental parameters are only documented here and not on the Wiki, chances are good that Newbies won't discover them and don't break things by setting unreasonable values and come here complaining that it doesn't work

[George]

I removed the daypatch and my sources are back to normal, how is this possible George ? I kindda loved it when i got very large sources.

Could not understand What has happened?

[George]

A possible solution is to make numbers configurable so the users can be your beta testers Rista's proposal to make it easy to increase production in the lower levels and harder in the upper levels (of primary industries) seems very feasible to me.

Good Idea! Goes to my todo list

[Hamilton2007]

I removed the daypatch and my sources are back to normal, how is this possible George ? I kindda loved it when i got very large sources.

Could not understand What has happened?

I guess that the Daypatch multiplies the sources cause the days are longer or something. I got the daypatch back and the sources are back big, but they don't come fast in to the station.

As you can see in the screenie Peseux factory produces 180 food/month, but stil does my trams need to wait for loading, probably because the days are longer, so are the month's off course.

But does your industries normaly produces much without the daypatch ? Because that still hasn't happend to me...

[George]

Let me give my 2 cents on the production levels, too: ...

Would it be ok if a player has to spend 11 years to achieve the highest production?

[George]

I removed the daypatch and my sources are back to normal, how is this possible George ? I kindda loved it when i got very large sources.

Could not understand What has happened?

I guess that the Daypatch multiplies the sources cause the days are longer or something. I got the daypatch back and the sources are back big, but they don't come fast in to the station.
As you can see in the screenie Peseux factory produces 180 food/month, but stil does my trams need to wait for loading, probably because the days are longer, so are the month's off course.
But does your industries normaly produces much without the daypatch ? Because that still hasn't happend to me...

I suppose day length patch increases amount of cargo produced a months. With a day length multiplied by 2 it (production) should be also multiplied by 2.
Vehicles should wait, because these high values are made during a long time period and vehicles can make a trip faster.
Why should not produce so much food without any fruit, cereals or oil seed.

[PhilSophus]

Let me give my 2 cents on the production levels, too: ...

Would it be ok if a player has to spend 11 years to achieve the highest production?

For the cited 66% rating from 3% to 100% production? Given that there are still measures to increase the rating (buy new vehicles, build statue) to get it faster than that, that might be okay. It depends a bit on how stable production is then. It shouldn't totally break down on slight problems then.

IMHO, the more important question would be, how long would it take to reach something like 50%. Assuming that this "slower increase for higher production levels" would be implemented it would mean you reach it a lot earlier than the half time (maybe after 2-3 years?).

[Clovertown]

On the production levels...

1. The production based entirely on station ratings creates instability. Industries tend to increase production until the transport network is no longer able to handle it, then crash down to minimum until the stations run out of surplus and ratings rise again, at which point the pattern repeats. It can only be handled by building service that can handle the 100% maximum output of every industry at all times, which brings us to...

2. The factories acceptance limits are very low compared to industry production. Because factory production and acceptance is also dependant on station ratings, the problem compounds exponentially with tiers. It's practically impossible to provide 100% service to 2nd and 3rd tier industries (except goods/food) simply because nothing accepts that much product. Vehicles are especially bad because they form an endless loop, delivering back to the primary industries.

This can of course be helped with the unlimited stockpile parameter, but then the extra cargo effectively just disappears. It also prevents having multiple industries accepting the same cargo serviced by one station, since all the cargo would go to the first one.

IMHO, the production should be scaled way down. All the industries produce way too much stuff and accept too little.

[George]

On the production levels...
1. The production based entirely on station ratings creates instability.

That was intnded

Industries tend to increase production until the transport network is no longer able to handle it, then crash down to minimum until the stations run out of surplus and ratings rise again, at which point the pattern repeats.

It was intended. But it was also intended that production would go down more smooth. So, some oscillation was intended. But it was intended in between 50% of network capacity and 150% of network capacity.

2. The factories acceptance limits are very low compared to industry production.

Low? They are more than twice larger, than amount of required materials.

Because factory production and acceptance is also dependant on station ratings,

It is not. It depends on amount of cargo waiting. Station rating is only a limitation for growing.

the problem compounds exponentially with tiers. It's practically impossible to provide 100% service to 2nd and 3rd tier industries (except goods/food) simply because nothing accepts that much product.

Please provide a savegame where you got no place for dyes

Vehicles are especially bad because they form an endless loop, delivering back to the primary industries.

This would be fixed. I didn't find time to do it yet, but there will be a solution.

This can of course be helped with the unlimited stockpile parameter, but then the extra cargo effectively just disappears. It also prevents having multiple industries accepting the same cargo serviced by one station, since all the cargo would go to the first one.
IMHO, the production should be scaled way down. All the industries produce way too much stuff and accept too little.

Well, reducing industry production is a question for discussion. What do you suggest?