Parkey will be overjoyed

[Dave]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7467203.stm

The GWML, WCML, ECML and MML are all quite expected... But the CHILTERN Main Line!?

Mwaha, this is awesome Appears to be built ALONGSIDE existing routes.

[Parkey]

Cheers Dave.

I think the routes considered are more likely to be along the lines of the five corridors suggested by Greengauge21 here [pdf]. That said, following existing rail lines or motorways does make planning easier.

It looks like ministers and the DfT are slowly being brought around to the right conclusions. LIAR reported recently that electrification might be on the cards, so let's hope that government support for high speed rail is also in the pipeline. This news article is basically reporting that network rail is doing the preparatory work for high speed rail; the reason they're doing it is because the government isn't.

[Born Acorn]

They should upgrade the North Wales line to increase Northern Ireland's connection to the rest of the UK, too.

[Dave]

They should upgrade the North Wales line to increase Northern Ireland's connection to the rest of the UK, too.

No they shouldn't, because no one cares about the Welsh. Or the Northern Irish.

Or Born_Acorn.

BWAHAHAHA

[Ameecher]

But why have 2 high-speed lines to Brum?

[JamieLei]

But why have 2 high-speed lines to Brum?

Cause millions and millions of poeple live here. 2.6 million actually. Just over that of Manchester, and certainly more than that of Norwich
Is the map accurate? I thought the greengauge21 proposal was alongside the Chiltern to Birmingham, and then to Manchester

[Dave]

I think it'd possibly be the way forward.

London-Manchester via the Chiltern Main Line, with a separate West Coast Main Line with an interchange at Birmingham.

[Ameecher]

I couldn't give a flying crap about Norwich, this wasn't me saying "BOO HOO! They have 2 HS lines and I have none!". I'm asking why Birmingham needs 2 HS lines when surely 1 well built one with lots of capacity would suffice. Be a hell of a lot cheaper too. It's got nothing to do with populations, by that argument why isn't there 2 high speed lines to Paris, after all London is 7 million and Paris is 9.6 million.

[Kevo00]

Lets be realistic here. I seriously doubt any of these lines ever have a chance of actually being built.

Particularly with the current recession and commodity shocks.

Or to put it another way, I'll believe it when I see it.

[andel]

I've removed a few posts with a lot rubbish in - if you have some genuine information to contribute, why not ask me to PM the original bit to you so you can repost?

Or better still, you could all just play nice? I'm unlocking the topic but rest assured, I've got my beady eyes on you all.

[JamieLei]

Lets be realistic here. I seriously doubt any of these lines ever have a chance of actually being built.

Particularly with the current recession and commodity shocks.

Or to put it another way, I'll believe it when I see it.

I'm very inclined to think the same way. However, it doesn't put off the newspapers, who jump at every single notion of a high speed line being built and proceed to report it as something that's actually going to happen. What I commend Network Rail for doing is doing is keeping it in the public conciousness, and as such in the media. I noticed that the BBC News report that Dave posted was in the top five emailed. Hopefully the increased public interest should get politicians to lobby for high speed rail.

If there is to be a big modal shift to rail, the spare capacity is needed. As we all know, the rail network is hideously congested - the West Coast Mainline is to be at capacity by 2015 IIRC, and there's the huge increases in passenger numbers in East Anglia and Southern Wales. Freight especially needs to move onto rail, but it can't until the passenger trains get out of the way first. There's no point trying to run a container train which gets 50 lorries off the road if 153311 is blocking the line with an all-stations stopper.

If the recession is caused by the price of oil, this calls for an even bigger call for high speed rail. All around us, airlines are going bust - Oasis Hong Kong, Alitalia, MaxJet, Silverjet. And now American Airlines is feeling the struggle by charging for baggage in the hold. It will very soon become uneconomical to operate domestic flights and as such something must take its place. With no increase in big motorway construction projects but a huge increase in demand, something must absorb the extra demand, and the politicians would prefer it if it was green, and didn't rely on oil imports from diminishing supplies and unstable countries.

[Kevo00]

This is all true but hinges on the overriding assumption that demand will grow.

Demand for HSL will grow if, as leading economists predict, we will be living in more cities and more densely packed cities in future as the car based dispersed population model we have now proves unviable in future. The problem is the current recession is not just about oil - its also about more fundamental things, like rises in wheat and rice prices among many others. These rises are being caused by the more unpredictable climate now being experienced meaning that harvests are no longer reliable.

Against this backdrop, which could cause a readjustment period lasting many years its possible economic growth will be static or will even start going backwards. Firstly this could mean less demand for rail frieght, as was experienced in the recessions of the early 80s and 1989-92 period, and further could lead to less demand for passenger traffic. The rise in passenger traffic in the last few years has entirely resulted from economic growth, not modal shift - people are simply making more journeys, and a rise in traffic is part of that.

Don't forget too, that the price of energy and labour for the railways is growing too. I actually suspect that we may see line closures in the years ahead, not line openings, because the demand for transport is related to the level of economic activity going on in general.

[Dave]

I think the demand is more than there - with fuel costs rocketing, I don't think you can see past the demand growing.