ECS scamatic

[ThunderAI]

Does anyone have a better layout structure of the production chain then the one on the ECS website. The website is missing pages and to be honest i'm not following the production chain very well.

I have spent a little while drawing out the chains put i am not able to get it into a clear one page layout. Has anyone else had more luck than I?

[George]

Does anyone have a better layout structure of the production chain then the one on the ECS website. The website is missing pages and to be honest i'm not following the production chain very well.
I have spent a little while drawing out the chains put i am not able to get it into a clear one page layout. Has anyone else had more luck than I?

Because it is not written
Are you ready to help?
http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ECSVectors
1st step required - copy the existing text for Wood vector and Agricultural vector.
2nd step - try to improve them. If you have any question - just ask. But do not ask me to write documentation. Comments inside GRF - that is all that I can do

[ThunderAI]

How dirty. Going to the TTD Patch site on a Open TTD thread... interesting

In any case, do people use the ECS vector. The reason I ask is cause given that the ECS vector has been around for some time with TTD Patch IO fidn it odd it isnt more documented.

i have charted all the indiviudal factoy chains, but on e massive map is proving complex right now.

[Maedhros]

Well, speaking for myself, I visit the TTDPatch wiki more often than the OpenTTD wiki.

[sc79]

Because it is not written
Are you ready to help?

Not surprisingly, I've also had similar problems trying to follow the full ECS industry chain, having never used it in Patch.
And, by my logic anyway, someone who is trying to find information about ECS, because their knowledge about it is extremely limited, isn't a good candidate for writing the documentation.

The website is missing pages and to be honest i'm not following the production chain very well.
.....
If you have any question - just ask.

Hence the original post.

[ThunderAI]

I drew out the production chains to make goods from the furniture factory, printing works, and textilera and there is either a fundamental flaw in the system or i am missing something.

Making furniture is the cleanest product chain in the system, but the other two chains relay on an infinte loop of production, ie. a circle jerk.

The other two production chains have a requirment for a good produced futhure down the production chain, for example, lets look at the production chain for the printing works:

The first part of the chain works without any problems

Forest -> Wood -> Sawmill -> Wood Products -> Paper Mill -> Printing Works

Now let us look at where the problems start going backwards...

Paper Mill <- Refined Products <- Oil Refinery <- Oil Seeds <- Fruit Platation <- Fertilizer <- Brewery <- Fruit

or

Paper Mill <- Refined Products <- Oil Refinery <- Oil Seeds <- Fruit Platation <- Fertilizer <- Cannery <- ... <- Fertilizer
The .... are because you have to follow two other chains of production to finally get to the error in the system

or

Paper Mill <- Refined Products <- Oil Refinery <- Oil Seeds <- Fruit Platation <- Fertilizer <- Chemical Plant <- Refined Products

or

Paper Mill <- Refined Products <- Oil Refinery <- Oil Seeds <- Fruit Platation <- Fertilizer <- Food Processing Plant <- Fruit

see the problem!

in either of those cases the prduction chain feeds on itself making the production of the chain impossible. Anytime Fertilizer makes an apperance the chain is impossible to complete.

[belugas]

How dirty. Going to the TTD Patch site on a Open TTD thread... interesting.

No dirty. Understandable. TTDPatch defines the grf specs. OpenTTD is not yet in the position to develop his own grf specs. Maybe one day, but we're not there already. So i'd say it is pretty normal. Ans as Maedhros, i do not spend as much time on OpenTTD's wiki as i do on TTDPatch's one. By far...

[ThunderAI]

How dirty. Going to the TTD Patch site on a Open TTD thread... interesting.

No dirty. Understandable. TTDPatch defines the grf specs. OpenTTD is not yet in the position to develop his own grf specs. Maybe one day, but we're not there already. So i'd say it is pretty normal. Ans as Maedhros, i do not spend as much time on OpenTTD's wiki as i do on TTDPatch's one. By far...

That is good to know, see previouse post for concerns on the system

[ThunderAI]

The production Chain for Vehicles also contains the very same Refined Products Circle Jerk, but also contains the Requirement:Vehicles Problem

The very production chain for which you are making requires the very item you are making in the chain. I realize you can not mine sand without trucks, but, yes not much you can do about it.

I am going to assume almost all of the production chains feed on themselves. Why doesnt te forest require trucks when the other natural resources do?

[Ailure]

OpenTTD is not yet in the position to develop his own grf specs.

openTTD is a male? I didn't know.

*ducks*

[ThunderAI]

I made a misstake in my previous post about the production chain of furniture. It turns out that it oo has a requirement for vehicles in both the sand pit and coal mine. This makes no production chain in the ECS completable.

I did some research on the ECS website to see if the requirement of vehicles increased the productivity of the factory and was unable to see anything that would prove that to be the case.


some questions, then...

- Has anyone played witht the ECS long enough to see if there is an impact on the factory if you give it vehicles ?

- is ECS still under construction and is the author still around ?

- Am I being overly picky about the scheme, or more importatly do the requirements of the different factories have any impact on their production?

- Is it possible to modify ECS to eliminate the circular nature of every single production chain ?

Granted it is realistic for the factories to require items not possible to be created without them, but you get one hell of a chicken and the egg problem if you can not remove the problem.

[DaleStan]

Making furniture is the cleanest product chain in the system, but the other two chains relay on an infinte loop of production, ie. a circle jerk.

If you look again, I'm pretty sure you'll discover that Fertilizer and Refined Products are not actually required for production, but merely enhance the production of the receiving industry.

[sc79]

Am I being overly picky about the scheme, or more importatly do the requirements of the different factories have any impact on their production?

I'm pretty sure that the industries have a required item(s), which are converted directly into the finished products, and also (or in the case of primary industries, only) additional item(s) which arn't directly converted to goods, but affect how the industry operates. For example, the glass works accept sand, coal and potash. Sand is immediately converted to glass, but a delivery of coal or potash produces nothing. Exactly how it affects the industry I have no idea as yet. But it means that a fair percentage of the "requirements" in the chains, which cause the circle jerk, don't actually halt things, but rather should be considered bonuses.

[ThunderAI]

I am pretty sure that the base raw materials say they require vehicles. They dont when the machinery vector is turned off, although the fertilizer requirement is still in place.

I did test the raw material depostis and they will generate goods without vehicles; however, I am not about to construct an entire production chain to see if vehicles actually increase production. Mainly because I would be a poor judge of that.

As for the glass shop, that is interesitng that sand will immedidlty make glass but potash and coal do 'nothing'. Is this a limination of the engine, or is their documented information that the other mateirals boost production. If they do boost production is it possible to change the requirements screen to say, production bonus or something?

I think boosting production is logical and effective way to do the chains, but to someone who knows nothing about the ECS trying to figure it out causes immediate concersn on playablility.

[George]

In any case, do people use the ECS vector. The reason I ask is cause given that the ECS vector has been around for some time with TTD Patch IO fidn it odd it isnt more documented.

And only 3 vectors from 9 came to beta 3 stage. And it took 2 years. What would be the result if I spend time on documentation instead?

i have charted all the indiviudal factoy chains, but on e massive map is proving complex right now.

this should answer all your questions.
http://george.zernebok.net/newgrf/newca ... s%2015.png (big file)
Could someone make a readable description on wiki from this picture?

And, by my logic anyway, someone who is trying to find information about ECS, because their knowledge about it is extremely limited, isn't a good candidate for writing the documentation.

Anyone, who has time, is a good candidate. Because there is many info inside GRF, XLS, VSD files. Someone should only transform it to readable format. It takes time but does not require any special knowledge. If you get questions you can simply ask

If you have any question - just ask.

Hence the original post.

I do not mean ask "write the documentation". I mean ask questions like "what is the max distance from water for paper mill". The answer is "1".

[George]

I am going to assume almost all of the production chains feed on themselves. Why doesnt te forest require trucks when the other natural resources do?

It does

- Has anyone played witht the ECS long enough to see if there is an impact on the factory if you give it vehicles ?

Factories do not accept vehicles. Only mines, farm and forest do

- is ECS still under construction and is the author still around ?

Yes. I'm here. I'm the author of ECS Vectors

- Am I being overly picky about the scheme, or more importatly do the requirements of the different factories have any impact on their production?

Yes. Some cargoes are processed directly, like wood at sawmill, other only affect production formula, but are not processed into cargo, like vehicles at forests.

- Is it possible to modify ECS to eliminate the circular nature of every single production chain ?

There is no need to do it. Most of the industries produce some amount of cargo even if you do not feed it with materials. So you can start at any place in a chain

Granted it is realistic for the factories to require items not possible to be created without them, but you get one hell of a chicken and the egg problem if you can not remove the problem.

You do not have this problem.

Making furniture is the cleanest product chain in the system, but the other two chains relay on an infinte loop of production, ie. a circle jerk.

If you look again, I'm pretty sure you'll discover that Fertilizer and Refined Products are not actually required for production, but merely enhance the production of the receiving industry.

Fertilizer - yes. Refined Products - no.

I'm pretty sure that the industries have a required item(s), which are converted directly into the finished products, and also (or in the case of primary industries, only) additional item(s) which arn't directly converted to goods, but affect how the industry operates.

Correct

For example, the glass works accept sand, coal and potash. Sand is immediately converted to glass, but a delivery of coal or potash produces nothing.

Please, focus on beta 3 first. alpha versions are very crude.

[DaleStan]

http://george.zernebok.net/newgrf/newca ... s%2015.png (big file)
Could someone make a readable description on wiki from this picture?

No. Because the key is notably absent. What do all these lines and symbols mean? Dashed? Continuous? Thick? Thin? Funny green and red and yellow archy-looking-things?

[ThunderAI]

I do not mean to belittle the work you have done, I think it is really good and I by no means would be able to do what you have; however, I am trying to understand the realtionships between production facilities. The large image you sent is nice but it is not by any means clear about what is going on (not to me anyway). I would rather have you develope ECS than document it, but documentation is important. Surely you have a flow chart you used to develope the vector system.

I have made a number of basic flow charts which are contained for each production facility. From what I recall this is every factory (both computer made and human made) with their complete systems.



If there is an error please advise.

edit: Changed Fishing Grounds to include an input of Passengers and an Output of Passengers

edit 2: I did my best to go through the Arg and Wood GRF files with a text editor looking for comments. Those comments I was able to make out I placed in the file and noted according to the key. There are a few factories in which the comments in the file and how the factory work in game are different. Those are marked in the picture with a (GRF Notes differ from In Game) below the input.

edit 3: Point was proven that Livestock Farm can only have three inputs when four were specified in chart. This has been corrected and varrified in the new nightly with the latest arg vector.

edit 4: George has been given the hard copy XLS file to make changes to and when I have that file back I will make a updated graphic and map.

[DaleStan]

There's something wrong with the Livestock Farm; maximum usable inputs is three.

[ThunderAI]

There's something wrong with the Livestock Farm; maximum usable inputs is three.

I see that, when I first did the flow charts I could swear the "Fund New Industry" button showed a requirement of Fertilizer as well. But now looking at it (perhaps with the new files), that requirement is no longer there. I will remove it from the chart.