Project: Economy and Balancing

[athanasios]

The one who plants more trees wins.

And you can pay a pyromaniac to burn them all, like what appened in many European countries last month, and you plant new ones!

[yoyo1505]

Having read most of the stuff on this topic, I thought I'd give my slant on several subjects:

Cargo payment rates - should take into account what kind of cargo we are dealing with, for instance mail needs to be delivered quickly, food will perish after a certain period of time (after which it is worth virtually nothing). Also longer transit times would be acceptable in the past, so the payment rates should also take into account the transport standards of the time.

Catchment areas - yes, they should be really big for intercontinental airports because everyone will hop in their cars and drive to them. But what about when not many people did have cars? They wouldn't be able to travel to a train station 30 squares away. I propose that the catchment radius is dependant on the year one is playing in - as more private transport becomes available, the radius grows.

Local and global ratings - should take into account the environmental impact of the company. Each vehicle could have an environmental impact and different forms of rail could have different levels of impact.

Performance rating - more emphasis on averages rather than minimums and maximums. Take into account the efficiency as well as the size of the company.

I like the idea of industries growing with supply, possibly growing around any features that are near (like cities).

These are only suggestions, I don't know if they can be implemented and won't be dissapointed if they are not. I just thought they might be helpful.

[hjxbf]

Having read the original PDF and skimmed through some of the posts here:

Great work! Economy in TTD has always been strange... However:

Be careful not do balance the game too delicately! I get the impression that some of these suggestions will require that you use all the different transportation abilities in very narrow applications, with the economic error margin as thin as paper... This will only make the game frustrating IMO; there are thousands of different transport companies in the world, and hardly anyone is run the same way. Any changes to the economy should still allow vastly different approaches on how to run a company; choosing to be a pure air/rail/road/sea company is some of the fun about the game as it is. All of it can be done profitably from the start both in-game (present) and in real life, without depending too heavily on any of the other forms of transportation. By the look of it so far, it seems to me that air travel is in danger of becoming a venture only possible when founded on a solid bus/rail empire, which will both provide funds for the huge investments due, and the required feeding in order to get profitable loads.

Even though this proposal also involves changes in the vehicles' roles, I haven't seen anything that will limit unrealistic and unfair use of certain vehicles, e.g. steam trains and hi-speed planes. In a newly started thread I came up with a suggestion to how some of the things in this thread could be achieved, possibly without rewriting half the game... http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=33614

Bottom line: All the Tycoon games I've played aim to let the player manage, experiment and enjoy their chosen theme. While most of them also involve money in some way or another, it's always secondary to the theme of the game (with the possible exception of Railroad Tycoon II, which has an extensive economic model, but can be disabled). RollerCoaster Tycoon lets you design your favourite theme parks, Airline Tycoon/Pizza Tycoon/Monopoly Tycoon are self-explanatory. The economy in these games is there mainly as a measurement of success or an indication of utter hopelessness (12 G Rollercoasters don't make money...), and allows a greater flexibility to experiment and vary gameplay frome save to save, on the expense of realism. Any changes made to the economy should IMO be done with the above vision in mind...

[White Rabbit]

Maybe it should be an option to pay for the handling cargo while they're being delivered? Food and fruit would need refrigeration, while coal would need no maintenance. When you choose to pay to 'preserve' food, its cargo payment decay rate would decrease, so it can be transported long distances and still be profitable.

[Normandy333]

Just a note on a bit of documental errors, you have the topic "Vehicles" twice, at both 3 and 9. I'd suggest either unifying the articles or renaming 9 Vehicle Type and moving it up, for organizational sake. That and Industries is duplicated. Move article 7 to article 2. And towns. Move article 6 to article 1.

And my opinions on articles:
9.1.2: In my opinion, trucks and busses should have their carrying values increased 2 to 3 fold, base costs increased 4 to 5 fold, with operational costs staying the same. That way trucks are no longer insignificant mites.

9.1.3: If one is to have large ships, you need to be able to find a way to refit the ship to be more flexible in taking cargo. Say you need to transport 100 valuables and 5900 grain across an ocean on a 6000 capacity ship. In real life, one would simply make the ship hold both in those oh so lovable international standardized crates.

9.1.4: Instead of having only set maximums, perhaps the different rails will also have an "imposed maximum", where say normal (conventional and electrical) railways have a max speed of 70% of that train's maximum speed due to inefficiencies, while High-Speed Rail might have 100%, and another type of rail, High-Quality might have 90%.

My proposed articles and changes:

3.10: Trams/Light Rail

3.10.1: Brief
Trams and Light Rail are a medium between heavy rail and road vehicles, mainly used for short (inter-city) distance travel that buses cannot handle (i.e. Trams), and medium distance travel that having a train service would be uneconomical (i.e. Light Rail).

3.11: Competition
Trams and Light Rail usually do not have much competition, as they are usually used for more specialized operations (e.g. shuttle to airport from city center), except from Buses and Trucks. However, since they are much faster and don't suffer from traffic, services usually choose them over their competitors.

3.12: Costs
The infrastructure of a tram or light rail system is just a little lower than a train line of comparable distance. However, the vehicles themselves are relatively cheap, being just a litte more expensive than buses and trucks. Maintenance is minimal.

6.7: Zones
A town will be divided into 4 seperate, distinct zones, the ratios of which will be determined by multiple factors, including player station placement, population, gEAL and lEAL.

6.7.1: Suburbs
Since there is a lack of rural areas, suburbs will suffice for our needs. These are composed of single-family homes, duplexes, small apartments, light shops/offices (with the occasional mega-mart) and recreational places (e.g. stadiums, theaters, parks). These compose of anywhere between 100% to 0%, depending on the population (and number of towns), regardless of EALs. The higher it goes, the lower the percentage of suburbs, decreasing exponentially (As in it slows down as the city gets bigger, not the other way around). Once a town becomes a city, it should have around 70% suburbs, with very low towns. With high it should be around 10%. A city should reach 0% suburbs at very low towns around 40000 people. Normal houses only give/recieve passengers and mail. All goods, food, etc... is delivered to the shops.

6.7.2: Industrial
This is composed of warehouses, and non-major industries. it ranges from 10% to 40%, depending on lEAL. It is sort of a bell-curve, with cities at both very low and very high lEAL having 10%, and cities in the middle having 30%. This congregates around freight train stops, docks (that service freight [not including docks that bring in goods or food]), and major factories. They require only Passengers and Goods, producing passengers. If possible, they could also require small amounts of raw material and produce small amounts of goods/foods. New industries will only appear in/near industrial zones. Tends to not like airports, but doesn't make much of an effort to move away.

6.7.3: Downtown
Composed of high-er-rise buildings (maybe 12 stories, all the way up) that aren't offices, basically. This does not necessarily represent slums. Not as tall and striking as Uptown. This comprises basically everything suburbs, uptown, and industrial don't take up. Requires a modest amount of goods, high amount of food, and produces many passengers. Airports force it away, so planes can't crash into the high-rise towers.

6.7.4: Uptown
Composed of those awesome office buildings that make a skyline, the percentage of this depends on the lEAL. It only occurs at the upper levels. The percentage is the inverse of industry after it reaches the peak 40%, plus a little, depending on population. So say industry currently takes up 22% of your city. It has 14000 people. Uptown takes over (40 - 22) + (population / 1000). 32%. It requires/produces huge amounts of passengers and goods. It tends to congregate around docks that bring in goods and food, and moves away from airports (to prevent crashes).

[athanasios]

Trams and Light Rail usually do not have much competition, as they are usually used for more specialized operations (e.g. shuttle to airport from city center), except from Buses and Trucks. However, since they are much faster and don't suffer from traffic, services usually choose them over their competitors.

Probably you live in a city without trams. Trams are the slowest of all other means of public transportation. Generally trams and trolleys are awefull. The best is metro after come buses.

[cmoiromain]

no, that depends on the city. I know the trams in paris don't suffer the trafic, since they have their own piece of grass to go on ^^ and they are better than buses, since they have less red signals to go through (thow the buses don't have that much either, since they have bus lanes...). Actually, the trams in paris are a bit like the metros, but not as good. And since wo don't have metros (either underground or on bridges) in OTTD, trams can prove really usefull in some cases.

[athanasios]

In Athens trams have max speed of 70km/h and so they waste their dedicated grass lane. Buses can go much faster in Bus lanes.

[cmoiromain]

more than 70 kmph? in Paris the max speed for any vehicle in town is 50 kmph (that's for cars and buses, not for metros or trams...)

[Red*Star]

Trams and Light Rail usually do not have much competition, as they are usually used for more specialized operations (e.g. shuttle to airport from city center), except from Buses and Trucks. However, since they are much faster and don't suffer from traffic, services usually choose them over their competitors.

Probably you live in a city without trams. Trams are the slowest of all other means of public transportation. Generally trams and trolleys are awefull. The best is metro after come buses.

I would also - as cmoiromain did - say "it depends". Our tramway (especially the express line which doesn't stop at each station) from Darmstadt-Eberstadt to Darmstadt Centrum is quite useful. And trams are cheaper than a metro (I even don't know if a metro would make sense for this short track because it runs with different operational directives compared to the tram).

And if you mention the ecological dimension: [trolleys and] trams have the benefit that they are powered by electricity [without having to carry a accumulator power supply, like the very few electric buses that I know], and this electricity can be generated by power plants using regenerative energy sources. This isn't possible in such an easy way with buses and other automobiles that are powered by fossil fuels.

[athanasios]

in Paris the max speed for any vehicle in town is 50 kmph

You can damage your car going so slowly. I wouldn't like to live in Paris. In streets yes we have same limit I suppose, but in avenues speed limit is 70 - 90 km/h and the damned bus drivers of express buses (very practical when traveling long distances as they have only few bus stops) won't go less especially when there is no traffic (night).

And if you mention the ecological dimension: [trolleys and] trams have the benefit that they are powered by electricity [without having to carry a accumulator power supply, like the very few electric buses that I know], and this electricity can be generated by power plants using regenerative energy sources. This isn't possible in such an easy way with buses and other automobiles that are powered by fossil fuels.

Many of our buses use natural gas. So no pollution. And the idea is to replace most fossil fuel buses with those burning natural gas (Renault and Iris Bus models.)

Ticket for metro is most expensive. Tram is in the middle and trolleys and buses are the cheapest. I buy a monthly card for buses, trolleys and tram (You can use any of them as many times as you like, except of course some special express long distance lines e.g. to the airport). I use the first two but never the tram even though it wouldn't cost me a cent more. The reason is obvious. I would be a fool not to use it if it was faster. For those not in a hurry it is OK though. It is much more comfortable in a tram than in a bus.

9.1.3: If one is to have large ships, you need to be able to find a way to refit the ship to be more flexible in taking cargo. Say you need to transport 100 valuables and 5900 grain across an ocean on a 6000 capacity ship. In real life, one would simply make the ship hold both in those oh so lovable international standardized crates.

Your idea is correct but your example is wrong. Valuables could travel with Goods in containers or crates as you said. But Grain not. It needs a bulk carrier:
Wikipedia:
"A bulk carrier, bulk freighter, or bulker is a merchant ship used to transport unpackaged bulk cargo such as cereals, coal, ore, and cement. . . Today, bulkers make up a third of the world's merchant fleet. . ."

[DaleStan]

Many of our buses use natural gas. So no pollution. And the idea is to replace most fossil fuel buses with those burning natural gas

Ah. So carbon dioxide is not a pollutant, and natural gas is not a fossil fuel?
I'm afraid you may have been brainwashed somewhere along the line.

Not your fault, mind you. I'm sure you've seen those "this food product contains no chemicals" labels? Water is a chemical. So are sugar, salt, and fats. Yeast and flour contain thousands of chemicals each. And that's just what goes into a basic white bread. Granted, the yeast will consume some of that, and will be destroyed by the heat, but water and salt don't decompose readily, and you still end up with long carbohydrate chains. (Guess what! Those are chemicals too!)

[Red*Star]

You can damage your car going so slowly.

In germany the cities also have a speed limit of 50km/h. And we have no problems with our cars .

Ticket for metro is most expensive. Tram is in the middle and trolleys and buses are the cheapest. I buy a monthly card for buses, trolleys and tram (You can use any of them as many times as you like, except of course some special express long distance lines e.g. to the airport). I use the first two but never the tram even though it wouldn't cost me a cent more. The reason is obvious. I would be a fool not to use it if it was faster. For those not in a hurry it is OK though. It is much more comfortable in a tram than in a bus.

Yes it is. So tram get's a bonus point, don't you think so?

About the costs: I didn't mean the price of the tickets, but the maintenance costs and the expenses for initial construction. At least the latter is much bigger for a metro track than a tramway, if the metro is built in the underground.



@DaleStan: Sorry for my intervention, but although your post is - as probably always - nearly 100% correct, you maybe don't know that there exist something like a colloquial meaning of words? Of course I don't know it, but it *could* at least be that athanasios meant "bio gas" when using the word "natural gas".
Similar problem with your chemicals: In "normal" conversation often the term "chemicals" is used for "un-natural" (whatever this word would mean in detail) chemicals. Of course this is not correct in a scientific way, but it is a colloquial quicklink to the "bad bad chemicals that do harm to the environment or whatever", which no one would like to use when talking about it in a "normal" way with other people.

I know of the problem that secondary communication information (gesture, facial expression, tone) isn't transported very well in forums [, emails, texts, etc.], but your post "sounded" a bit harsh. If so, just think of being a little bit more polite, or less 'pedantic', the people out there will thank you for it.

[I'm just posting this because this is not the first time that one of your posts makes a rude impression to me. Last but not least: This should be no offence, just a little hint for yourself.]

[athanasios]

I assume DaleStan prefers to travel on foot! Thus he pollutes less!

OK gas is fossil fuel, my mistake , yet it can be produced from recycling waste...

Who is brainwashed? Trams and Trolleys consume electric which is mainly produced from coal, oil. Gas is a more clear fuel than those. CO2 is much more better than CO etc... OK in a few countries they have managed to cover a big percentage of their needs for electric from hydroplants, wind, etc. But what about the rest of the world? It needs time to adjust. Should they use more coal and oil for the time being? (It wouldn't be a problem for my country we have plenty of coal.) Or resort to nuclear... Ahh, I forgot this is not a good idea, big Boss will say we are terrorists who want to build nuclear weapons To be serious it is dangerous and pollutes more. Also is this European Union project (funding gas in buses) a stupidity? Or maybe a conspiracy of Russia to make European countries dependand on them?

Regarding chemicals (Thanks RedStar): This is a game forum and many members are just kids. It is not a scientific forum. Common people refer to artifically composed substances as chemicals. Now DaleStan I don't understand why you provided that example. How should they label their products? "Without health hazardous chemicals but with natural non health hazardous chemicals"? I wouldn't have the patience to read it, and common people wouldn't make sense of it. We must be reasonable. You should be more concerned when they have a long list of Es, some of which are suspicious and certainly you cannot remember all of them.

I stated my opinion on the role of trams and provided support for my sayings. If you believe otherwise you are free to believe. But please don't behave like this.

[richk67]

Time for a bit of bah humbug.

There is an assumption that chemicals=bad, natural=good. Its all just hype and tosh. Nicotine is natural, cocaine is natural, oil is natural. Bad? Bad? Neutral? CO2 is being portrayed as a bad gas to emit, but it is just the balance of it that may be bad. The Earth has seen radically higher levels of CO2 naturally.

As for E numbers in food - many are natural products, and are harmless. eg. red food dye is made from crushed beetles, so is natural, but is given an E number. Even some artificial E number products are harmless. But all get washed with the wide "E numbers are bad" brush.

Personally I take the view that most if not all things you see on TV and read in newspapers is scaremongering just to sell papers (or sell politicians). Some is grounded in science, but a lot is bad science, or short perspective science. You may hear of campaigns to try to stop the desertification and spread of the Sahara desert. Well, big news... the Sahara has been expanding for the last 12000 years, why should we waste time trying to stop a process that has been doing its own sweet thing way before Man became a contributing problem.

OK... as for the topic... I would hate to see any eco-silliness introduced within any Economy & Balancing mods. No to carbon trading, no to having to use green methods for producing fuel in the game. No to producing the raw materials to build my vehicles with. Its a transport game, with transport strategy as the No.1 and to me the only attraction. Leave green gaming to those who want to add a .GRF to enable it.

[DaleStan]

I assume DaleStan prefers to travel on foot! Thus he pollutes less!

Not quite, but pretty close. Foot is first choice for anything up to about a half mile. Longer than that, and I bike instead. Biking requires more preparation, but the actual travel is three to four times faster than walking, so I make up the lost time quickly.

Biking's sometimes faster even than driving.

Trams and Trolleys consume electric which is mainly produced from coal, oil.

In which country? France is 80% nuclear. Most, if not all, of the rest of western Europe is over half nuke. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the US is the only first-world country with less than half its power coming from fission. At least until France gets its fusion reactor online.

Personally I take the view that most if not all things you see on TV and read in newspapers is scaremongering just to sell papers (or sell politicians). Some is grounded in science, but a lot is bad science, or short perspective science.

Indeed. Despite what they want us to think, from uranium extraction to final waste emplacement, nuclear fission is the least environmentally damaging power generation technology, per unit power generated. Fusion will take this position handily once it finally happens (see above), but until then fission reigns supreme.
Coal-fired is probably the worst. Ignoring for the moment the carbon, nitrogen, and sulfur oxides, a coal plant releases approximately four times as much radiation to the general public as does a nuclear fission plant. Coal has uranium impurities. These are spewed up the stack, while a fission plant keeps everything tightly controlled and in large heavy solid blocks. No one ever mentions this. No one ever even considers this.
Hydro plants flood hundreds to thousands of square miles of land, destroying habitats and migration paths, and changing weather patterns. For some reason, the Greens think this is desirable.
Wind plants are fickle at best, and futz with the wind currents.
Solar panel production requires quantities of energy similar to that which the panel will generate in its lifetime, not to mention the dangerous chemicals involved.

[Coslany]

Leaving the ecological arguments to one side for a moment....

I think this is one of the most important developments for the future of this game (along with the AI).
Many good ideas and I like the logical framework in which it's being developed.

However, the ultimate question has to be: 'What are we trying to achieve?'

As I see it - the way to run a 'traditional' game at the moment is to run lots of 'point to point' services. Hey, when payment rates are only time / distance based why not? This is simple, makes a lot of money and is unrealistic because destination is missing from the equation. When I travel I don't look for the best £ / average speed - i try to get where I'm going too!

Why is point to point rail so profitable? Some reasons are:
1. The cost of laying track is extremely low.
2. The maintenance of track is extremely low.
3. The cost of 'levelling the land' is extremely low.
4. The above means that there is no little point in 'sharing' track.

What I've said above is realistic yet pricing rail too high may lead to the death of 'complex junctions' etc in a normal game and I think that would be a shame. That's what leads me all the way back to 'what are we trying to achieve?'

I will think more and post more later....

Until then, cheers

-Cos

[White Rabbit]

Maybe it should be an option to pay for the handling cargo while they're being delivered? Food and fruit would need refrigeration, while coal would need no maintenance. When you choose to pay to 'preserve' food, its cargo payment decay rate would decrease, so it can be transported long distances and still be profitable.

Make that 'can be in transit for a long time and still be profitable'.

[athanasios]

Yes, something is very wrong with the game. Cargo payment rates for oil drop by time. That's crazy. Countries even use supertankers for storing oil. It can remain there for a couple of years.

[DaleStan]

Then write a GRF.