Project: Economy and Balancing

[SirkoZ]

Hello all,

I have put down some brainstormed points you might think about or take into consideration.


1) For perishable goods another dimension in the cost calculation could be added. For example: a higher 'total days in transit' will have a negative effect on your income for delivering a for instance livestock. The current 'days per 20 tiles' rule will exist besides that. So you will be encouraged to have short routes for perishable goods.


2)

When a new vehicle
is purchased, reliability starts at 100 percent (90 percent for very new vehicles on the market).

New vehicles are not reliable in the beginning period with all their child diseases, but I understand/accept that this is easiest like this.


3) Would it be possible to have some kind of road infrastructure generator within the map generators, so that road vehicles can be more tempting to use?


4) Maybe some kind of urbanization could be simulated. Some towns will lose population in favor of one growing one or something like that.


5) Economic activity within a region (you transporting very good) could stimulate the appearance of new industries (the region gets richer with more population etc.)

6) New products are always very expensive in the beginning and get cheaper after some period (product life cycle). Does this apply to trains / railway systems / etc too?


7)

Diesel and electrical based engines were introduced
in the early 19th century which were able to reduce cost, weight and provide more power and velocity. also in the early 19th century, tram and subways were introduced for commuter distances.

Maybe you mean the 20th century or I should have paid more attention during my history classes

Wow - those are really good suggestions, Scia!

Very realistic. I like that very much!

[Aracirion]

oh i forgot to say: if road-building improves your reputation with the authorities, then wouldn't people start pointless roadbuilding in the way they have to make forests now?

[erdnis]

oh i forgot to say: if road-building improves your reputation with the authorities, then wouldn't people start pointless roadbuilding in the way they have to make forests now?

Well, I'd say the easiest solution to that problem is to limit the amount of reputation you can gain (in a certain period of time) by building roads. The same can of course be done with trees.

[Brianetta]

Diesel and electrical based engines were introduced
in the early 19th century which were able to reduce cost, weight and provide more power and velocity. also in the early 19th century, tram and subways were introduced for commuter distances.

Maybe you mean the 20th century or I should have paid more attention during my history classes ;)

You should have paid more attention. The mid to late 19th century saw electric traction (including the London Underground and many suburban and tram systems). Diesels were even earlier. Multiple units came later, in the 20th, but by then there were many trams, subways and suburban lines already in operation.

[Scia]

Diesel and electrical based engines were introduced
in the early 19th century which were able to reduce cost, weight and provide more power and velocity. also in the early 19th century, tram and subways were introduced for commuter distances.

Maybe you mean the 20th century or I should have paid more attention during my history classes

You should have paid more attention. The mid to late 19th century saw electric traction (including the London Underground and many suburban and tram systems). Diesels were even earlier. Multiple units came later, in the 20th, but by then there were many trams, subways and suburban lines already in operation.

But not early 19th century...

[Celestar]

Hello all,

I have put down some brainstormed points you might think about or take into consideration.


1) For perishable goods another dimension in the cost calculation could be added. For example: a higher 'total days in transit' will have a negative effect on your income for delivering a for instance livestock. The current 'days per 20 tiles' rule will exist besides that. So you will be encouraged to have short routes for perishable goods.

I understand what you're aiming at, but I'm not sure I will add it in the first pool. We'll see

2)

When a new vehicle
is purchased, reliability starts at 100 percent (90 percent for very new vehicles on the market).

New vehicles are not reliable in the beginning period with all their child diseases, but I understand/accept that this is easiest like this.

That's why the 90% rule. I've extended / modified the paragraph for clarity

3) Would it be possible to have some kind of road infrastructure generator within the map generators, so that road vehicles can be more tempting to use?

That's a good idea. I'll see what I can do, maybe hijack the trolly-AI, but this is separate from the economy stuff

4) Maybe some kind of urbanization could be simulated. Some towns will lose population in favor of one growing one or something like that.

I've currently not thought about thinking of whether people "move". Currently I'm just thinking of the "rabbit" approach

5) Economic activity within a region (you transporting very good) could stimulate the appearance of new industries (the region gets richer with more population etc.)

This is a good idea. Secondary industries are more likely to be founded where Economy is high.

6) New products are always very expensive in the beginning and get cheaper after some period (product life cycle). Does this apply to trains / railway systems / etc too?

Depends, from my experience with aircraft, the price depends more on negotiation/reputation than on anything else. Launch customers often receive discounts in the 35-45% range.

7)

Diesel and electrical based engines were introduced
in the early 19th century which were able to reduce cost, weight and provide more power and velocity. also in the early 19th century, tram and subways were introduced for commuter distances.

Maybe you mean the 20th century or I should have paid more attention during my history classes

Er ... yeah

Celestar

[Celestar]

I still have to make up my mind on subsidies, I think subsidies are more likely when a town has low economic output.

Celestar

[richk67]

5) Economic activity within a region (you transporting very good) could stimulate the appearance of new industries (the region gets richer with more population etc.)

This is a good idea. Secondary industries are more likely to be founded where Economy is high.

I would also add that if a primary industry mine grows to > some limit, then a new mine would spawn within 20-25 tiles of it. This would simulate there being a rich coal/iron ore seam, and more industries are attracted to mine it by the clear success of the other one.

I would however limit it that one mine may only spawn a mine once to prevent constant spawning.

[DarkFenX]

We had discussion on our forum ~3-4 months ago about it... lots of ideas were already mentioned, and following one (includes few points) is one of my favorite Smile
1) Increased/realistic cost of vehicles - mentioned
2) Cost of infrastructure. It should be realistic... but in real life we have roads of different 'quality'. Village road and autobahn, non-electrified smashed suburb railway and modern high-speed for locomotives like thalys or eurostar. I think that 3-5 gradations (not 2 types only for railway - it's very rough imo + i don't think that "Conventional Railway" of 19th century had top speed limit of 160km/h, 5 for usual rw, 5 for electrified, 2-3 for monorail/maglev, 5 for road) per road/railway would be enough, each with its own cost and speedlimit (just like bridges) - only partially metioned in pdf
3) Both vehicles and infrastructure should be maintained. You've divided vehicle maintenance costs into several groups (personnel, fuel, etc), i don't know if you plan it, but it may be simplified and taken as average as usual maintain cost (for 2 vehicle states - running/loading-unloading-stopped).
Same for infrastructure for each object - depot, station tile, suburb road, autobahn, modern maglev railroad - mentioned
It'd be strange if we'll use the newest railroad technologies to transport iron ore for distance ~20 tiles using diesel...
If costs would be appropriate - player will get motivation to use not best-of-all locomotives and road types for some routes.

[Brianetta]

But not early 19th century...

Depends on how early is early. 1837 early enough?

[hertogjan]

In section 9.1, about direct operational costs: It might be an idea to let those costs depend on the amount of energy that is used . That is, to keep the cost per time-unit depend on the amount of power used (rather than the velocity). It is actually quite easy to compute that amount of power when realistic acceleration is enabled. (When disabled, one has to "guess" using an appropriate function of speed, weight etc.). In this manner, the energy costs do not depend directly on speed, although the power consumed increases when the speed increases. The advantage of this model is that factors like ascending/descending hills are incorporated automatically.
What I had in mind (already before this forum topic was opened), is to let fuel costs depend linearly on the consumed power, plus a fixed cost when the engines are running.* The cost per time unit for a given train engine will be given by something like

Code: Select all

direct_operational_cost = cost_per_power_unit * current_engine_power + basic_operational_cost;

There are still some details that have to be looked after:
- If a train consists of more than one type of engine, how is the consumed power shared between the engines (which may have different cost factors)? (Possible solutions: Compute the total power for the consist, and assign the power to the cheapest operating engines** first, and then to the more expensive engines; or: compute the total power for the consist, relative to its maximum power, and assign to each engine** an equal percentage of its maximum power).
- If a train uses powered wagons, how should they add in the running costs? (Possible solution: Add the power of the wagons to that of the engine it is behind, and compute the running costs of the engine using that amount of power***).
Actually, maybe I should just write a patch that does it.

In order to prevent ultra-fast cargo trains (section 9.1.3) one might opt for speed limits for cargo wagons, and/or higher air drag coefficients for cargo wagons (i.e. all train wagons except passenger and mail cars). This makes sense, since cargo wagons are usually less aerodynamic than cars of passenger trains. This disencourages high-speed cargo trains, since the amount of power needed increases dramatically when the speed gets higher.


*Train engines are running when a train is waiting for a red signal, but not if the train is loading/unloading, or stopped in a depot or (manually) outside a depot.
**Only for engines that are actually powered; i.e., not for electric engines on non-electrified track.
***I.e., the sum of the engine power and the power consumed by the wagons.

[DarkFenX]

As far as i understand all those features requre advanced physics handling (and all new parameters like air drag coef for each vehicle/vagon/...).
Personally, i'd be happy if physics patch will be included

[DaleStan]

(and all new parameters like air drag coef for each vehicle/vagon/...).

Vehicles other than the front one in a chain don't tend to cause much drag; they just draft off the vehicle in front.

[DarkFenX]

It's true for passenger trains (they form solid 'snake' with almost no holes between wagons, high-speed passenger trains don't have them at all), but not for freight trains... yes, their drag much smaller since they're behind other units of train. But air drag of all train vans comparable to air drag of 1st locomotive in case of 10+ vans...
If we're talking about perspectives of this physics including newGRF files... just as example - our rus iron ore hoppers (which may be prototype for newGRF file) have form of upturned trapezium (when you look at it from left/right side) - ~3-4 meters between upper parts of neighbour wagons' trapezium and 5-6 between lower parts of them, ~1 meter between platforms they're standing on. I don't think that in this case we can neglect air drag force...
Or platform-like container-transport wagon. 1 meter betwee neighbour platforms, ~20 meters length of platform itself and ~12 - length of container (numbers everywhere are not exact, hope you'll catch main idea anyway). In this case each container transporter have almost the same air drag force (8-10 meters between containers) as 1st locomotive...
I think that there's a lot of non-perfect from the point of aerodynamics' view vehicles in real life, so this should be taken into consideration too (despite the fact that almost all TTD's original vans don't have space between neighbour vans at all). Or even in original TTD... imagine train with tens of empty iron ore hoppers on speed 200+ km/h

[Scia]

I just thought of another good thing (I think):

Variable catchment area's. A station (of any sort) which is served very well will get an increased catchment area, while bad serviced stations will get a very small catchment area.

For instance: People want to travel a lot to get to an international airport (like Dusseldorf). They can get there by private means like a car (this is what the bigger catchment area is for). Or when passenger destinations are implemented there will be an increased number of passenger which want to use the airport (instead of other not so well serviced/slower alternatives).

Another example: A bus station which has 10 different bus lines will attract more passengers than just a bus stop (people are willing to travel a bit further).

[Earl Sven]

In order to prevent ultra-fast cargo trains (section 9.1.3) one might opt for speed limits for cargo wagons, and/or higher air drag coefficients for cargo wagons (i.e. all train wagons except passenger and mail cars).

Cargo wagon speedlimits I am all in favour of, however I would object to using them until PBS is introduced so I can effectively build two-up two-down lines enabling slower trains to use one line, and faster trains another, yet for each line to be frequently accessible from the other for 'overtaking' etc. In real life, any mainline frequented by frieght and passengers would be of this configuration, else passenger trains would get held up. For now though I am content with the 'enable wagon speed limits' tickbox in patch options! Though I do agree that of course it would be silly to assume all wagons could run at high speed.

*Train engines are running when a train is waiting for a red signal, but not if the train is loading/unloading, or stopped in a depot or (manually) outside a depot.

Train engines are not always stopped in station, for example, on passenger services they aren't. Obviously for freight this does make sense. I like the idea, but assuming that engines would automatically switch off at stations is silly.

[Brianetta]

...two-up two-down lines enabling slower trains to use one line, and faster trains another, yet for each line to be frequently accessible from the other for 'overtaking' etc. In real life, any mainline frequented by frieght and passengers would be of this configuration, else passenger trains would get held up.

UK mainlines are configured for two-way running on both lines, but not as you seem to think. Trains run on the left unless they cannot, due to damage, maintenance, etc. They do not overtake other, slower, trains by switching to the other track. Doesn't happen.

Delays are avoided by timetabling, and by using separate relief lines. Where a freight train must use a stretch of mainline, it is timetabled so that it can complete its use of the mainline and get off onto a relief line before a high speed train is due. On very busy lines, only high speed freight trains are allowed on at all.

[DJ Nekkid]

guys ...

different kind of tracks and such is a nice thing, but please dont ruin a perfectly good game by makeing it too complicated... And too costly to operate...

Ive tried simutrains, and i feel that game is far to complicated... And OTTD seems to moveing in the same direction simutrains is at the present state...

What i personally would like to see in TTD:
passangers with destinations, so i can make passanger-trains like this: endstation==city1==city2==city3==cityN==endstation and passangers would not go off and on at each stop...

better/nicer graphics with slightly better size relations, but that mostly on the airplanes... trains and busses seem fine...
plus a larger variety of vehicles, and the ability to put in lets say the DBXL-pack, the UK-remake-thing-pack, the norweegian pack, etc

when it comes to destinations for cargo im not too sure... it would have to be diffrent then simutrains atleast ... Perhaps you could deliver it to lets say withing 250 (255?) or 350 (384?) tiles or something... In that way you would be forced to make "depos" where u i.e. deliver all coal in an area to a powerstation, all iron to a steelmill. Perhaps it start at a certain level in 1920, then it add 2 tiles per year or something similar?

Last but not least, 2 things, kinda in one ... Subways and/or the ability to make stations and construkt train-lines underground. Atleast beneth airports... Most modern airports have underground trainstations...


This became perhaps a bit off topic, and should be in the other "what i would like to see in OTTD"-post but still ... PLEASE don't ruin the game!

[richk67]

LOL - great post!! "Dont make it too complicated" ie. a complex clickfest, closely followed by "I would like passengers with destinations".

Cargo packets is the ultimate in micro management. You will be unable to set up a service and leave it running, but have to constantly check "Have my passengers stopped asking to go to station A and now want station Z?".

Its great for single play, with much use of pause to work out what on earth has happened. For MP it would be a disaster, IMO.

[DJ Nekkid]

and btw; gimme real planespeeds, i se absolute no use of them after 1990 or so when TGV's almost outrun them...


well, and for the passangers with destinations... i did make a suggestion earlier on how to manage it... with a local, regional and global kind, where the local will travel only so far, regional between that far and a bit further, and global from the regional max border and further...

lets say:

local is less then 50 tiles, regional is up to 250ish, and global is further then that, or some other numbers one see fit.

or even more kinds, but still, it don't have to be from city A to any city, but from City A to cities within a radius of X or something similar... im no expert in coding, but someone will find things out...

but please don't make things tooooooo complicated... then the game will loose its click-and-point appeal...


the reason i like to play it, is to make the "ultimate" network... sorta like borg perfection (http://www.startrek.com if u don't know what a borg is)