Cataloguing new graphics

[mexicoshanty]

Hi there,

I'm going to develop a system that will help us organise and maintain the huge list of new graphics that have been created or will be created. Here's a brief about how i think it should work, but i'm not involved with creating the graphics or programming the game so i don't know much about what is needed. This is where i need people who know how the new graphics system works to help me design a system that will organise them.

User privilage system

• The system (with exception to .blender files) will be viewable to all
  Only registered users can upload and download .blender files
  Only registered users can upload sprites
  Only registered users can change the status of the graphic objects
  Only admins can add and delete graphics objects
  Only admins can add and delete registered users

When creating or editing the specs for a graphics object (via the admin usertype) the following will be available

• Specify the group to which this graphic belongs (eg, trains, buses etc, etc)
  A description of the object (just what it is and any reference info)
  The ability to select the degrees to which we need sprites for
  The ability to specify if construction sprites are needed
  The ability to specify if overlays for remappable colours are needed
  The ability to upload old graphic as references

When logged in as a registed user they can do the following to a graphic object

• Change it's status (Not Started, Work In Progress, Complete). Are there any more status's we need?
  Assign the graphic object to themselves
  Upload sprites.
  Upload .blender files
  Add a comment about the object

When guests are viewing graphics objects they can

• Look at all the sprites developed so far
  Add a comment about the graphics object

If there's anything i've missed please let me know.

Coen

[mexicoshanty]

Just a few questions. For each sprite of each angle do we need different zoom levels or are the sprites resized on the fly? What format do the sprites need to be in? And are we still doing the day and night thing?

[Ben_Robbins_]

1) Not shore
2) .png
3) I asume so

If .blend files are made invisible, could .max files, maya, SI, LW files also be included?

[mexicoshanty]

If .blend files are made invisible, could .max files, maya, SI, LW files also be included?

Yeah any 3d model format can be uploaded. I just picked .blender's as that seems to be the defacto.

With regard to the day and night thing, i assume the darkness is induced by a layer over the top of the entire view while inceasing the darkness of that layer. Then highlights (lights) are drawn over the original sprite. Is this correct?

Back to the zoom problem. It would be good to work this out so we know exactly what we are doing and can start signing off graphics once all the sprites are generated.

[Ben_Robbins_]

I asumed for the night renders, there would just be a seperate light set up, and then you would make additional lighting for man made lights, and then render it again. But that was just an assumption.

For the zoom 'problem'. It doesn't really matter, because if we model the graphics to a level where they can be rendered at the highest zoom, then when we need smaller renders that won't be a problem. From everything Alltaken has posted, I guess there is to be 3 levels rendered, and then the current 2 most zoomed out levels, are just calculated from the most zoomed out of the new graphics.

[mexicoshanty]

I asumed for the night renders, there would just be a seperate light set up, and then you would make additional lighting for man made lights, and then render it again. But that was just an assumption.

The problem with that is that there would be no gradual transition between day and night. I noticed in the OTTD devel forum there is talk of a day and night patch. What they actually did was adjust the pallet to contain darker colours. At the moment that is probably the only and best way to do it. However it is limiting.

I envisaged 2 types of lighting in the night environment.

The first is for things like window lights, neons, etc (bright light without any lighting up of surrounding objects). These would be drawn on top of the original graphic and above the darkness layer.

The second would be light emitting from things like train headlights, truck headlights, street lights, etc. How this would work is the night time layer would act as a mask and light would be created by eating away at this layer to reveal the day time colours underneath.

Imagine how damn cool it would be to be playing OTTD then it starts to get darker and darker. Then house lights start switching on randomly (so they don't turn on all at once) and once it reaches a certain darkness the street lights are turn on. While you're admiring the pretty lights a fright train rushes by lighting up a small distance infront of the train with it's high beam lights.

lol, hmm a bit of a side track from what this thread is about. I'll just leave the day and night thing for the moment. I think the main thing is that we get the cataloguing system done first. It can always be extened and i'll make it so that'll be rather easy to do.

[Alltaken]

http://ottd.mudpuddle.co.nz/ottdsiteproposal.pdf

see how it compares to that. i wrote it years ago for a web dev who got busy i think, but it might still be relevent.

Alltaken

[mexicoshanty]

http://ottd.mudpuddle.co.nz/ottdsiteproposal.pdf

see how it compares to that. i wrote it years ago for a web dev who got busy i think, but it might still be relevent.

Alltaken

Yeah, that pretty much outlines it. Where can we host this system? I could probably host it somewhere if needed, I have a few servers around the place but the only place that is appropriate is on a under a reseller account in the US (all of my servers are in australia and bandwidth is expensive, so that wont work with the huge 3d files) but i don't like the reliability at this host. However it's better than nothing.

[stewis]

1) Not shore
2) .png
3) I asume so

If .blend files are made invisible, could .max files, maya, SI, LW files also be included?

1) If you are using php to dev the system you could use php gd to load the image and then resize the image to to correct zoom level on the fly so you get similar results to openttd.

[Alltaken]

Where can we host this system?

talk to orudge

Alltaken

[mexicoshanty]

1) Not shore
2) .png
3) I asume so

If .blend files are made invisible, could .max files, maya, SI, LW files also be included?

1) If you are using php to dev the system you could use php gd to load the image and then resize the image to to correct zoom level on the fly so you get similar results to openttd.

The gd library doesn't give the best results. It's fine for most things but in this case i'd prefer to either render the images in the specified res or use photoshop to resize them.

[ZxBiohazardZx]

read blender thread i posted a list of all work up to page 70 in an excel file there, including picture links and work links....

bio

[Field-Mouse]

Hmm.. havent seen this thread before.. (too bad) i have started working on this too now..??
I havent read through this whole thread, but I believe making this kind of system doesnt have to very complicated in the beginning. Its enough with a file uploader with a user system. There is only need for 1 preview image for every blender file, the final lighting and all that hasnt been done yet anyways. 2 files for every model would be sufficent according to me. To be honest, i think one and the same person should render all the models in the end, to make sure every model is rendered perfectly and all is rendered the same way, this is the only way to do that, even though it will be a paon for the one who gets the job...
Another thing we need is a backup server with automatic backup script.
None of these things are VERY difficult.
I believe in keeping things as simple as possible.
EDIT:: Also, why shouldnt blend files be open for everyone? Or did I missunderstand something..? And btw, all resizing of images has to be banned here according to me, simply because it sucks. Like u said, rendering is the best option, the ONLY option!

[mexicoshanty]

Also, why shouldnt blend files be open for everyone? Or did I missunderstand something..? And btw, all resizing of images has to be banned here according to me, simply because it sucks. Like u said, rendering is the best option, the ONLY option!

Only reason why i don't like the idea of giving everyone access is bandwidth. Apparently blender files are a few hundred megs. Anyhow for the casual browser they've got no need for them apart from just having a peeky (which isn't worth using up 150MB of bandwidth). If they want to start comitting to the project they can become a registed user.

[mexicoshanty]

read blender thread i posted a list of all work up to page 70 in an excel file there, including picture links and work links....

bio

Any idea where that link is? I've been looking for a while and couldn't find anything.

[DaleStan]

Only reason why i don't like the idea of giving everyone access is bandwidth. Apparently blender files are a few hundred megs.

Admittedly, it's a small sample, but the the .blends I found (from the .blend thread) are as follows:

Code: Select all

 Size   Gzipped
  2MB    411KB
214KB     61KB
289KB     86KB
172KB     41KB
175KB     56KB

IMO, this does a pretty good job of smashing the "few hundred megs" theory.

I list gzipped size because all compentent browsers support gzipped transmission of content, as does IE.

[mexicoshanty]

Only reason why i don't like the idea of giving everyone access is bandwidth. Apparently blender files are a few hundred megs.

Admittedly, it's a small sample, but the the .blends I found (from the .blend thread) are as follows:

Code: Select all

 Size   Gzipped
  2MB    411KB
214KB     61KB
289KB     86KB
172KB     41KB
175KB     56KB

IMO, this does a pretty good job of smashing the "few hundred megs" theory.

I list gzipped size because all compentent browsers support gzipped transmission of content, as does IE.

haha, ok, i guess i was wrong. I see no problem with everyone having access to them then. I think only registed users should be able to upload them though.

[mexicoshanty]

Hmm.. havent seen this thread before.. (too bad) i have started working on this too now..??

Coolo!

I havent read through this whole thread, but I believe making this kind of system doesnt have to very complicated in the beginning. Its enough with a file uploader with a user system. There is only need for 1 preview image for every blender file, the final lighting and all that hasnt been done yet anyways. 2 files for every model would be sufficent according to me. To be honest, i think one and the same person should render all the models in the end, to make sure every model is rendered perfectly and all is rendered the same way, this is the only way to do that, even though it will be a paon for the one who gets the job...
Another thing we need is a backup server with automatic backup script.
None of these things are VERY difficult.
I believe in keeping things as simple as possible.

I'm a big fan of doing things right the first time. I'm not quite sure what you ment by keeping things 'simple'. Did you mean keeping the system architecture simple or just not implementing some features yet? I can't stand anything worse than picking up a project that started out simple and has grown beyond it's boundaries into i giant turd.

[Field-Mouse]

I'm a big fan of doing things right the first time. I'm not quite sure what you ment by keeping things 'simple'. Did you mean keeping the system architecture simple or just not implementing some features yet? I can't stand anything worse than picking up a project that started out simple and has grown beyond it's boundaries into i giant turd.

Of course preparing room and making sure it can be expanded, but do we really need all pictures and yada yada? We have to remember that this has to be kept simple in order for the creators to upload their stuff, I mean, the wiki is pretty simple, but that hasnt been used properly by the artists here! The only thing i believe is a neccesery complication is to give people accounts PERSONALY through pms on the forum or something. We cant have free registration and people uploading crap.
I really think its enough with a blend file (and perhaps 3ds or whatever the orgiginal format is) and a preview imageif more than one blend file is needed (perhaps building stages and such), then they can upload them too, with one preview image per blend file. Making perfect renders feels like a waste of time to me.. Since lighting and such isnt finished yet? Implementing aditional functions should not be very difficult in a later stage.. As long as we dont paint ourselfs into a corner so to speak.

Admittedly, it's a small sample, but the the .blends I found (from the .blend thread) are as follows:

I have a blend file that is 40 megs, and its not finished yet. Its too big for ordinary file upload, we need some sort of java script with a progress bar.
Im no big java coder actually so either someone here who can makes one, or we find a scipt to download and implement it to the site.
BTW, my scene file from XSI Softimage is 60 megs, and while exporting it to blender, i have to use the obj format which creates a file of 300 megs. Which means, depending on what 3d program people use, the files will be different sizes.

Only reason why i don't like the idea of giving everyone access is bandwidth. Apparently blender files are a few hundred megs. Anyhow for the casual browser they've got no need for them apart from just having a peeky (which isn't worth using up 150MB of bandwidth). If they want to start comitting to the project they can become a registed user.

Havent done it, but there has to be some setting on apache to limit download (upload) speed, and therefor avoiding clogging up the line.. I dont know what kind of license we are under, if any, but it has to be implemented to the site, and I DONT believe we can lock the files with passwords if we are going to use any ordinary license? Correct me if im wrong, I allmost have no idea what im talking about


EDit:: i dont know how to use gzip when transfering files...

[mexicoshanty]

Of course preparing room and making sure it can be expanded, but do we really need all pictures and yada yada?

I think so yeah. I don't see much point in making a system that's just going to do pretty much the same job as the wiki but more complicated. What this project (New GFX) needs is some organisation for content generation. No one knows what needs to be done and at the way it is heading it will be a never ending loop of good ideas, lots of effort and no results. My aim for this project is to create a system that will allow the admins to specify the details for each graphic object and enforce them. If a model isn't complete then the sprites shouldn't be uploaded. A WIP preview can be uploaded instead. Or maybe the artist just doesn't feel like generating the sprites at that time so they don't have to upload them.

I think it's a good idea to get the talent while it's hot, lol. Both of us are pretty keen on getting this system up and running so if in the long run we plan to have all these features then that should be our aim. Cos if we cut the project short in 6months - 27years time when such a system is needed we mightn't be around to contribute. And really such a system isn't that much work.

Havent done it, but there has to be some setting on apache to limit download (upload) speed, and therefor avoiding clogging up the line..

Yeah i know these are few modules out there that do this (mod_throttle?). But it's not bandwidth throughput i'm worried about as there wont be too many people uploading and downloading concurrently. It's paying for the bandwidth. As OTTD is a non-profit venture i think expenditures should be kept to a minimum...

I dont know what kind of license we are under, if any, but it has to be implemented to the site, and I DONT believe we can lock the files with passwords if we are going to use any ordinary license? Correct me if im wrong, I allmost have no idea what im talking about

Yeah interesting, i don't know either.