My comments on TT and TTD

[Chris Becke]

"Peter J. Dobrovka" wrote:

Hehe, the changes people are requesting here are no longer small.

OTOH, it would help if I ever got a hold on the TTD source code, but I
can't see that happening...

This would be very nice. But you won't even success in talking to C.S.,
not
speaking of asking him this.

In one of his interviews Crhris Sawyer revealed he coded TT and TTDlx in
assembler. The "source code" is but a good disassembler away.

At which point I include a link to http://www.datarescue.com

Chris
--
VisualC++ & Win32 FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/vcfaq
My Win32 Page: http://users.lia.net/chris/win32

[Stevie D]

Josef Drexler wrote:

No!!! It's top secret!!! You'll never find out!!!! (Ok, now I've
run out of exclamation marks... Anybody know where I can buy
another set?)

I think the bakery has some on special this week ...

Straight from my ttdpatch.todo file...

Currently implemented (but not entirely functional yet) are:
- Remove all city roads; in-between pieces with ratings penalty =
12 trees

Hooray! The not-being-able-to-remove-any-town-roads is one thing I
really dislike about TTD

- fixed Obelisk stations: if station removal doesn't clear
all platforms "something" remains

¿Qué? ¡No comprendo!

I would like to be able to remove individual platforms from a station ~
is that what you meant?

- fixed Undead vehicles. When built not immediately -14 profit.

Again, straight over me 'ead. Please explain so I can cheer and be happy

- Small airports after 1975 or so.

Why not after 1960 when they first disappear?

- fixed 2055+16000 days bug (trains constantly going into depots)

Good

- Build 7x7 station - with Ctrl 3-7/4-7 not 1-5/1-4

Good

- Longer bridges

Good

- Recursion factor change from 6; should make AI building
more intelligent

Good
Will they still sometimes use wooden bridges for maglevs?

Planned if easy enough to do, but maybe not for this version:

- Retain vehicle names when selling and buying again

Will they retain service interval as well?

- Wait indefinitely at signals

How will this work? I wouldn't like to see it set for the whole game;
that would just be chaotic!

- Remove city bridges; large penalty of course

Yes, please please please.

- fix Busses going wrong way when looking for depot?

How?

- place > 1 tree

Good. That message is SOOO annoying!

- Bulldoze HQ

I thought you could do that in the original? But then you can't in DX.
Strange.

- Cht: OwnCrossing should determine the owner by tracing the tracks

You've lost me again

- find lost trains (E+D, 4)

How does that one work then?

- pre-signals for all one-way to two-way sections

How about at a crossover too?

- RV's: no collision detection in the station to prevent gridlock

Huh?

- Refittable hovercrafts, make mail/oil/food a refit option
for trains and planes; divide ships into tanker and dry
good ships

Do hovercrafts carry freight IRL?

--
Blow your mind ... smoke gunpowder

email address spam-trapped
see if yooo can spot it

[Peter J. Dobrovka]

Chris Becke schrieb in Nachricht <388a2599$0$35...@helios.is.co.za>...

"Peter J. Dobrovka" wrote:
Hehe, the changes people are requesting here are no longer small.

OTOH, it would help if I ever got a hold on the TTD source code, but I
can't see that happening...

This would be very nice. But you won't even success in talking to C.S.,
not
speaking of asking him this.

In one of his interviews Crhris Sawyer revealed he coded TT and TTDlx in
assembler.

I know this interview.

The "source code" is but a good disassembler away.
At which point I include a link to http://www.datarescue.com

This is true and is not true.
You can analyze any program by disassembling because every program has to be
converted to machine code to run.
But you cannot reconstruct names and this makes the code very hard to
understand. It is hard enough if you have the real source with comments and
names but if you have only MOV and LDA and JNZ - good night.

Peter

[Chris Becke]

"Peter J. Dobrovka" wrote:

This is true and is not true.
You can analyze any program by disassembling because every program has to
be
converted to machine code to run.

It takes a while yes - but IDA (from datarescue) lets you reconstruct the
names.

It presents an editor with the assembler and it has labled most of the
assembler code with default meaningless labels.

It also automatically indentifies any c-runtime functions being used
(strcmp, malloc etc).

Every thing it doesn't understand it marks and then you use the editor to
tell IDA what each construct is.

Take "mov esi, 0f09456h" - the disassembler doesn't know if the number is a
constant, or a pointer. This depends on the later use of esi Anyway, its
marked, so the editor will jump you to such commands - in this case press
"O" for "offset", or "#" for constant number.

Also, as you go you can change any label you see (procedure names etc) and
the change is automatically propogated accross the dissasembly.

Then, once this is done, you can export the asm again to be assembled by
MASM or TASM on the wintel

But you cannot reconstruct names and this makes the code very hard to
understand. It is hard enough if you have the real source with comments
and
names but if you have only MOV and LDA and JNZ - good night.

hmmm... once you have given a couple of the functions names, and put remarks
in, the dissasembly begins to become quite clear. This is how I learned how
to compress and calculate the checksums for the savegames, and
highscoretable, and how to extract the .CAT files. I simply read Chris
Sawyers own code

It is slow work, but I am currently working my way through his sprite
blitting code (I have the GRF file format down pat... I just need to know
how he interprets the sprite data).

[Peter J. Dobrovka]

Chris Becke schrieb in Nachricht <388a750a$0$35...@helios.is.co.za>...

"Peter J. Dobrovka" wrote:

This is true and is not true.
You can analyze any program by disassembling because every program has to
be
converted to machine code to run.

It takes a while yes - but IDA (from datarescue) lets you reconstruct the
names.

It presents an editor with the assembler and it has labled most of the
assembler code with default meaningless labels.

It also automatically indentifies any c-runtime functions being used
(strcmp, malloc etc).

Hm... - I remember c-programs have their variable/function names still in
the exe, could it be?
This would be very hacker-firendly, hehe.

Every thing it doesn't understand it marks and then you use the editor to
tell IDA what each construct is.

Take "mov esi, 0f09456h" - the disassembler doesn't know if the number is a
constant, or a pointer. This depends on the later use of esi Anyway,
its
marked, so the editor will jump you to such commands - in this case press
"O" for "offset", or "#" for constant number.

Oh, it seems I have to do a closer look to this tool
If I only had time for these things...

Also, as you go you can change any label you see (procedure names etc) and
the change is automatically propogated accross the dissasembly.

Then, once this is done, you can export the asm again to be assembled by
MASM or TASM on the wintel

But you cannot reconstruct names and this makes the code very hard to
understand. It is hard enough if you have the real source with comments
and
names but if you have only MOV and LDA and JNZ - good night.

hmmm... once you have given a couple of the functions names, and put
remarks
in, the dissasembly begins to become quite clear. This is how I learned how
to compress and calculate the checksums for the savegames, and
highscoretable, and how to extract the .CAT files. I simply read Chris
Sawyers own code

This sounds very interesting.
So you could analyze the AI's heurictics?

It is slow work, but I am currently working my way through his sprite
blitting code (I have the GRF file format down pat... I just need to know
how he interprets the sprite data).

Did you already 'make' a readable TT source that can be compiled and run? If
yes, you and Josef could put together your knowledge. Hey, what a power!

Peter
--
Die 3. Dimension der Strategiespiele:
http://www.digitalprojects.com/way-x

[Sebastian Moleski]

[snip]

The "source code" is but a good disassembler away.
At which point I include a link to http://www.datarescue.com


This is true and is not true.
You can analyze any program by disassembling because every program has to
be
converted to machine code to run.
But you cannot reconstruct names and this makes the code very hard to
understand. It is hard enough if you have the real source with comments
and
names but if you have only MOV and LDA and JNZ - good night.

Besides the fact that reverse-engineering of programs protected by
copyrights is illegal. <g>

Sebastian Moleski

[Peter J. Dobrovka]

Sebastian Moleski schrieb in Nachricht <86f4n3$2vo...@news.nikoma.de>...

[snip]
The "source code" is but a good disassembler away.
At which point I include a link to http://www.datarescue.com


This is true and is not true.
You can analyze any program by disassembling because every program has to
be
converted to machine code to run.
But you cannot reconstruct names and this makes the code very hard to
understand. It is hard enough if you have the real source with comments
and
names but if you have only MOV and LDA and JNZ - good night.

Besides the fact that reverse-engineering of programs protected by
copyrights is illegal. <g

Josef said: it Canada it isn't. It is allowed and even supported to improve
software by modifying.

Peter
--
Die 3. Dimension der Strategiespiele:
http://www.digitalprojects.com/way-x

[Mike Wagstaff]

On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 02:23:30 +0000, Stevie D <sjd...@york.ac.oook> wrote:

Josef Drexler wrote:
- fixed Obelisk stations: if station removal doesn't clear
all platforms "something" remains

¿Qué? ¡No comprendo!

I'm guessing here as well, but maybe it's something to do
with the fact that when you bulldoze a station, it's name and
ratings are kept in memory for a short time. If you then
place another station on the same spot or close by, then it
assigned the old station's name and ratings. Possibly it's
something to do with this?

I would like to be able to remove individual platforms from a station

Me too!

- fixed Undead vehicles. When built not immediately -14 profit.

Again, straight over me 'ead. Please explain so I can cheer and be happy

I think this is to do with vehicles with limited lifespans.
For example, steam trains will normally become unavailable
after a certain time. If I understand correctly, the next
patch will have an option to keep all such vehicles available
to build - but they'll more costly to run.

- Wait indefinitely at signals

How will this work? I wouldn't like to see it set for the whole game;
that would just be chaotic!

My argument would be that this behaviour should be normal.
Think of real-life: how many times has a train you've been on
had to reverse back up a stretch of line because it's been
waiting too long at a signal?!

- Cht: OwnCrossing should determine the owner by tracing the tracks

You've lost me again

I think that this means that you can delete pieces of track
where a town has built a road across them. But I thought you
could do that anyway... Maybe not!

- RV's: no collision detection in the station to prevent gridlock

Huh?

I think this means unlimited road vehicles in their
respective "stations". For instance, you could have unlimited
busses (buses?) at a bus stop.

-Mike [http://games.hplx.net]

[Patchman]

In article <86f5g1$r8...@news06.btx.dtag.de>, Peter J. Dobrovka says...

Sebastian Moleski schrieb in Nachricht <86f4n3$2vo...@news.nikoma.de>...
Besides the fact that reverse-engineering of programs protected by
copyrights is illegal. <g

Josef said: it Canada it isn't. It is allowed and even supported to improve
software by modifying.

I can't find my TTD manual which has the license agreement. Sometimes
the license disallows it even though general copyright would allow it.
In these cases it might be illegal, but it's against Civil Law and not
criminal. Still, it could get expensive...

--
Josef Drexler | http://publish.uwo.ca/~jdrexler/
---------------------------------+---------------------------------------
Please help Conserve Gravity | To email me, please change the country
Play Chess, not Basketball. | code to .ca - Death to Spammers!

[Patchman]

In article <388914A2.AC2E4...@york.ac.oook>, Stevie D says...

Josef Drexler wrote:

No!!! It's top secret!!! You'll never find out!!!! (Ok, now I've
run out of exclamation marks... Anybody know where I can buy
another set?)

I think the bakery has some on special this week ...

Never mind. I don't need them very often anyway so I can wait till they
grow by themselves.

Straight from my ttdpatch.todo file...

Currently implemented (but not entirely functional yet) are:
- Remove all city roads; in-between pieces with ratings penalty =
12 trees

Hooray! The not-being-able-to-remove-any-town-roads is one thing I
really dislike about TTD

Just make sure you replant enough of the trees or they'll hate you for
messing up with their road layout

- fixed Obelisk stations: if station removal doesn't clear
all platforms "something" remains

¿Qué? ¡No comprendo!

Sometimes when you remove an extended station with more than 4 platforms
or longer platforms, it doesn't disappear completely, some parts of the
tracks may remain. Then when you build another station nearby both of
these get merged, which really confuses the computer. This was a bug in
TTDPatch.

I would like to be able to remove individual platforms from a station ~
is that what you meant?

No, that's not possible yet, and I'm not sure how I'd do that.

- fixed Undead vehicles. When built not immediately -14 profit.

Again, straight over me 'ead. Please explain so I can cheer and be happy

Sometimes when you build a vehicles, it is "undead". It doesn't age and
doesn't cost maintenance, and causes some other problems. You can notice
that by looking at the profit, which should immediately go to -14 after
building it, and if it doesn't, it's undead.

- Small airports after 1975 or so.

Why not after 1960 when they first disappear?

That's what I meant

I just wasn't sure in which year they disappear...

- Recursion factor change from 6; should make AI building
more intelligent

Good
Will they still sometimes use wooden bridges for maglevs?

I don't know...

And it doesn't help all that much. On a stupidity scale from 0 to 10, it
changes from 10 to 8, maybe.

Planned if easy enough to do, but maybe not for this version:

- Retain vehicle names when selling and buying again

Will they retain service interval as well?

Not yet, but I've taken note of that and will try to include it.

- Wait indefinitely at signals

How will this work? I wouldn't like to see it set for the whole game;
that would just be chaotic!

Depends on your track layout. And you'll of course be able to turn this
option off, depending on your preferences.

- fix Busses going wrong way when looking for depot?

How?

Don't know yet

- Cht: OwnCrossing should determine the owner by tracing the tracks

You've lost me again

Sometimes railroad/road crossings get taken over by to local authority.
"Cht: OwnCrossing" is supposed to give these back to you but had some
problems, because it can't determine the owner, so that the computer's
crossings were given to you too.

- find lost trains (E+D, 4)

How does that one work then?

Don't know yet... but it'll alert you in some way to trains which didn't
visit a station on their schedule for maybe 4 months or so.

- pre-signals for all one-way to two-way sections

How about at a crossover too?

I think that might mess up some people's layout. And you can't select
which type of pre-signals you want, it's all or nothing. So I'm afraid
no.

- RV's: no collision detection in the station to prevent gridlock

Huh?

This is to prevent to lockup of road vehicles at a station entrance, and
also (possibly) allows to have more than two in one station.

- Refittable hovercrafts, make mail/oil/food a refit option
for trains and planes; divide ships into tanker and dry
good ships

Do hovercrafts carry freight IRL?

I think they carry cars. It might be a question of weight, or
profitability, though.

--
Josef Drexler | http://publish.uwo.ca/~jdrexler/
---------------------------------+---------------------------------------
Please help Conserve Gravity | To email me, please change the country
Play Chess, not Basketball. | code to .ca - Death to Spammers!

[Mike Wagstaff]

On Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:28:57 GMT, jdrex...@julian.uwo.canada (Josef Drexler) wrote:

Do hovercrafts carry freight IRL?

I think they carry cars. It might be a question of weight, or
profitability, though.

They definitely carry cars from England to France. Of all the
ways of crossing the channel, the hovercraft has to be the
most fun!

-Mike [http://games.hplx.net]

[Stevie D]

Josef Drexler wrote:

- fixed bugs: CD drive parameter

Would that mean that it *would* require the CD to run? Or only that you
*could* us the CD. BCos I quite like to have a music CD on when I'm
playing TT, and I don't always have another CD player around.

--
Blow your mind ... smoke gunpowder

email address spam-trapped
see if yooo can spot it

[Patchman]

In article <388AE855.DA2E8...@york.ac.oook>, Stevie D says...

Josef Drexler wrote:

- fixed bugs: CD drive parameter

Would that mean that it *would* require the CD to run? Or only that you
*could* us the CD. BCos I quite like to have a music CD on when I'm
playing TT, and I don't always have another CD player around.

No.... the current Version of TTDPatch makes it impossible to use a CD,
you have to copy everything to the hard disk to use it. That's a
TTDPatch bug (it doesn't pass the CD drive letter to TTD), and now that
it's fixed you can use a CD again. Not that I'd know why anybody would
do that...

So this is really a good thing.
(Like everything connected to TTDPatch
If you don't need a CD now you don't have any problem, nor will you with
the next version. (I never use my CD so that's why these bugs keep
escaping me...)

--
Josef Drexler | http://publish.uwo.ca/~jdrexler/
---------------------------------+---------------------------------------
Please Conserve Gravity: Don't | To email me, please change the country
hang your clothes - pile them up| code to .ca - Death to Spammers!