3DTT - Debate now in session..............

[Edward Bernard]

I for one think 3DTT is an excellent game, and surely will be very popular,
but this post is perhaps on a more serious matter. During this post, I will
remain impartial, and present the cases of both sides.

Usher: All rise for Chairman Eddie Bernard. Debate is now in session.

<ALL RISE>
</ALL RISE>

OK, whatever. Now the case I can see clearly on
Alt.Games.Microprose.Transport-Tyc (AGMT-T) is the overwhelming amount of
posts recently on the topic of 3DTT. Here I am going to present the facts
about the current situation. As Chairman, I will "oversee" this little
debate, and I will make this short opening speech. Please remember that
views expressed in this speech are not neccesarily the views of myself.

MOTION PROPOSED: 3DTT should move to it's own newsgroup.

Recently, there has been a surge in the number of posts on this newsgroup
regarding the game 3DTT by Way-X. These posts are not "swamping" the group
down, but they are accounting for a good majority of the traffic to this
newsgroup at the present moment. It is common Usenet practice, that if a
faction in a group is believed to be too large, then a group split could be
in order. Some suggestions are:

alt.games.3dtt
alt.games.way-x.3dtt

A Dejanews search for the string "3DTT" reveals 120 articles in the past two
months (not including this post). Most of these have been posted here, but
there are other groups too. A group could be created, but before that, a
reliable estimate must be made on the outcome and the remnants of AGMT-T.
Creating a group of 3DTT, could effectively end the life of AGMT-T. But, to
salvage, perhaps there could be cross-posting between the two groups. There
is also the possiblity that the new group might be a complete failure, as no
one is willing to ask their ISP to include the group on their server, or
perhaps is not accepted as a reasonable proposal on Alt.Config.

HOWEVER ; this could give rise to the devastating effects of cross-group
flaming.

Before we begin this discussion, I would like two people to present a case.
One FOR the motion, and another AGAINST.
Please do not begin this discussion until there has been a reply presented
FOR and AGAINST.

If you would like to propose a FOR arguement, please reply to this post,
inserting [FOR] in the subject.
If you would like to propose an AGAINST arguement, please reply to this
post, inserting [AGAINST] in the subject.

*PLEASE* - Do not make comments on anything I have said. These are only
opening statements to get you thinking. By all means, if you wish to use
them in your arguements, then please do so.

Thank you very much for your attention in this matter,

Eddie B

--
The official TTNG website:
http://www.ttworld.cjb.net

Personal site: http://www.ebernard.greatxscape.net

[Spider]

I'm against it all the way. I don't care what the message ratio is about
3DTT. It's "transport tycoon"... It doesn't make any sense at all to break
off yet. Maybe when 3DTT nears beta production or even post-beta. I don't
understand what the purpose would be when we can post here just as well.

--Spider--

[Paul Wright]

maybe because some ppl might not be interested, and are downloading useless
msgs, i think thats what eddies getting at, i mena, it is not transport
tycoon, peter said he didn't want a clone, and it isn't microprose either

--
____________________________________________________________________

Paul Wright
"I love children, but I couldn't eat a whole one"
ICQ UIN: 38986089
E-Mail: paul-wri...@SPAMu.genie.co.uk
SMS: pwrigh...@SPAMgenie.co.uk
Website: COMING SOON
This post is 100% Paul Wright, © Paul Wright 1999, Keep Away!
___________________________________________________________________

Spider <askme...@myrealaddress.com> wrote in message
news:s6g937a45k287@corp.supernews.com...
: I'm against it all the way. I don't care what the message ratio is about
: 3DTT. It's "transport tycoon"... It doesn't make any sense at all to break
: off yet. Maybe when 3DTT nears beta production or even post-beta. I don't
: understand what the purpose would be when we can post here just as well.
:
: --Spider--
:
:

[Trikklennium]

Spider <askme...@myrealaddress.com> wrote in message
news:s6g937a45k287@corp.supernews.com...

I'm against it all the way. I don't care what the message ratio is about
3DTT. It's "transport tycoon"... It doesn't make any sense at all to break
off yet. Maybe when 3DTT nears beta production or even post-beta. I don't
understand what the purpose would be when we can post here just as well.

Here, here....
I would like to second this by pointing out that as it is the next
generation in the TT family it *SHOULD* be included in this NG.

If, once ot has been released commertially, people would like there own NG
then fine. BUT until that time, any conversations pertaining to this game
would be best placed HERE.


--
Rick McGreal
Life is a bunch of Roses...Complete with thorns.
tri...@transport-tycoon.co.uk
http://www.transport-tycoon.co.uk

[Pasi Ruhanen]

Edward Bernard wrote:

MOTION PROPOSED: 3DTT should move to it's own newsgroup.

I am voting for it. Yeah, it _is_ a Transport Tycoon clone, but because there's so much discussion about it, it should have an own newsgroup...

--
Pasi Ruhanen http://www.linuxfreak.com/~taikaviitta/
"Onko mahdollista saada Piraatti Domain Nimen nettiin
(esim:www.miikka.fi), Jos saa miten?" - peelolausahdus

[Paul Wright]

count me in with you

--
____________________________________________________________________

Paul Wright
"I love children, but I couldn't eat a whole one"
ICQ UIN: 38986089
E-Mail: paul-wri...@SPAMu.genie.co.uk
SMS: pwrigh...@SPAMgenie.co.uk
Website: COMING SOON
This post is 100% Paul Wright, © Paul Wright 1999, Keep Away!
___________________________________________________________________

Pasi Ruhanen <taikaviitta.em...@sci.fi> wrote in message
news:3868D4C0.CD509B64@sci.fi...
: Edward Bernard wrote:
:
: > MOTION PROPOSED: 3DTT should move to it's own newsgroup.
:
: I am voting for it. Yeah, it _is_ a Transport Tycoon clone, but because
there's so much discussion about it, it should have an own newsgroup...
:
: --
: Pasi Ruhanen http://www.linuxfreak.com/~taikaviitta/
: "Onko mahdollista saada Piraatti Domain Nimen nettiin
: (esim:www.miikka.fi), Jos saa miten?" - peelolausahdus
:
:
:

[Peter J. Dobrovka]

Oh, I really would LOVE to have my own Newsgroup, hehe. But my common sense
tells me these two arguments to stay here with the discussions:


1. The new NG wouldn't be available for most of the people, including me.

Explanation:
Some providers take forever to provide a new NG. I am so glad to access this
NG finally by my newsreader. I am still waiting for alt.games.mdestiny since
its beginning. Deja.com is of no comfort and it made my monthly bills jump
into astronomical heights by its graphical bulls***.

2. If we split I am sure 3DTT will loose more than 90% of its discussion
material.

Explanation:
I am not talking about 1, this would be an additional problem. There are
already messageboards but they still don't exceed 10 postings. This has good
reasons. Many threads about 3DTT stuff do develop from TT related threads.
Look: TT gets old, we all begin to know this game and its internal secrets
so well that the discussion stuff is decreasing. Many topics go into the
direction how to improve the game, what you would like to see an so on. And
here is the point where TT players can contribute to the development of 3DTT
by their experience with TT, knowing of the bugs, internal matters, likes
and dislikes, and little things that seem of little importance at first
moment.
These threads would never have started in a 3DTT NG. The result would be a
mass of f'ups and crosspostings.
A second reason is: Many people already know TT and find this NG
accidentally and become part of the community. But how will they find 3DTT?
What does this say to somebody who never heard about it?
These arguments may become obsolete when 3DTT has been released and becomes
well-known in the gallery of computer games.



Two arguments why the argument of "being off topic" does not count:

1. 3DTT and TT are very close topics. Okay, we don't belong to Microprose
and we will make things different in many cases but it is remaining a
transport simulation strategy game and the people who like this kind of
games are gathering here and I think that people who play TT are very
interested in 3DTT. I hope really I am not wrong...

2. Since we are a limited number of people here who know each other we
should not think I dimensions of law, order and rules but should simply
represent what we would like to read and write here ourselves and what not.
(I will respect if people do not like the 3DTT stuff here but please do not
vote in the name of these people, vote for yourself only.)

Peter

[Paul Wright]

amount of posts with the folllowing in:
3DTT: 121
Way-X: 55
3DTT Alpha: 23

'nuff said

--
____________________________________________________________________

Paul Wright
"I love children, but I couldn't eat a whole one"
ICQ UIN: 38986089
E-Mail: paul-wri...@SPAMu.genie.co.uk
SMS: pwrigh...@SPAMgenie.co.uk
Website: COMING SOON
This post is 100% Paul Wright, © Paul Wright 1999, Keep Away!
___________________________________________________________________

Edward Bernard <e...@ttworld.the-whale.com> wrote in message
news:848lhk$73v$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
: I for one think 3DTT is an excellent game, and surely will be very
popular,
: but this post is perhaps on a more serious matter. During this post, I
will
: remain impartial, and present the cases of both sides.
:
: Usher: All rise for Chairman Eddie Bernard. Debate is now in session.
:
: <ALL RISE>
: </ALL RISE>
:
: OK, whatever. Now the case I can see clearly on
: Alt.Games.Microprose.Transport-Tyc (AGMT-T) is the overwhelming amount of
: posts recently on the topic of 3DTT. Here I am going to present the facts
: about the current situation. As Chairman, I will "oversee" this little
: debate, and I will make this short opening speech. Please remember that
: views expressed in this speech are not neccesarily the views of myself.
:
: MOTION PROPOSED: 3DTT should move to it's own newsgroup.
:
: Recently, there has been a surge in the number of posts on this newsgroup
: regarding the game 3DTT by Way-X. These posts are not "swamping" the group
: down, but they are accounting for a good majority of the traffic to this
: newsgroup at the present moment. It is common Usenet practice, that if a
: faction in a group is believed to be too large, then a group split could
be
: in order. Some suggestions are:
:
: alt.games.3dtt
: alt.games.way-x.3dtt
:
: A Dejanews search for the string "3DTT" reveals 120 articles in the past
two
: months (not including this post). Most of these have been posted here, but
: there are other groups too. A group could be created, but before that, a
: reliable estimate must be made on the outcome and the remnants of AGMT-T.
: Creating a group of 3DTT, could effectively end the life of AGMT-T. But,
to
: salvage, perhaps there could be cross-posting between the two groups.
There
: is also the possiblity that the new group might be a complete failure, as
no
: one is willing to ask their ISP to include the group on their server, or
: perhaps is not accepted as a reasonable proposal on Alt.Config.
:
: HOWEVER ; this could give rise to the devastating effects of cross-group
: flaming.
:
: Before we begin this discussion, I would like two people to present a
case.
: One FOR the motion, and another AGAINST.
: Please do not begin this discussion until there has been a reply presented
: FOR and AGAINST.
:
: If you would like to propose a FOR arguement, please reply to this post,
: inserting [FOR] in the subject.
: If you would like to propose an AGAINST arguement, please reply to this
: post, inserting [AGAINST] in the subject.
:
: *PLEASE* - Do not make comments on anything I have said. These are only
: opening statements to get you thinking. By all means, if you wish to use
: them in your arguements, then please do so.
:
: Thank you very much for your attention in this matter,
:
: Eddie B
:
: --
: The official TTNG website:
: http://www.ttworld.cjb.net
:
: Personal site: http://www.ebernard.greatxscape.net
:
:

[Edward Bernard]

Peter J. Dobrovka <dobro...@t-online.de> wrote in message

1. The new NG wouldn't be available for most of the people, including me.

Explanation:
Some providers take forever to provide a new NG. I am so glad to access
this
NG finally by my newsreader. I am still waiting for alt.games.mdestiny
since
its beginning. Deja.com is of no comfort and it made my monthly bills jump
into astronomical heights by its graphical bulls***.

Yeah I agree. I've recently made a new group, but AFAIK, only a handful of
servers have took up the group. Going through Deja is really *slow*

2. If we split I am sure 3DTT will loose more than 90% of its discussion
material.

Explanation:
I am not talking about 1, this would be an additional problem. There are
already messageboards but they still don't exceed 10 postings. This has
good
reasons. Many threads about 3DTT stuff do develop from TT related threads.
Look: TT gets old, we all begin to know this game and its internal secrets
so well that the discussion stuff is decreasing. Many topics go into the
direction how to improve the game, what you would like to see an so on.
And
here is the point where TT players can contribute to the development of
3DTT
by their experience with TT, knowing of the bugs, internal matters, likes
and dislikes, and little things that seem of little importance at first
moment.

I agree with these. They are all very valid reasons.

These threads would never have started in a 3DTT NG. The result would be a
mass of f'ups and crosspostings.
A second reason is: Many people already know TT and find this NG
accidentally and become part of the community. But how will they find
3DTT?
What does this say to somebody who never heard about it?
These arguments may become obsolete when 3DTT has been released and
becomes
well-known in the gallery of computer games.

But surely they would come here and say

"TT great game blah blah blah, any sequels?"
"Yes...<points to alt.games.3dtt>"
"Thanks! Bye!"

Well maybe not "bye" because they might stay.

Two arguments why the argument of "being off topic" does not count:

I never suggested that it was off topic. It is almost certainly on topic of
this group.

1. 3DTT and TT are very close topics. Okay, we don't belong to Microprose
and we will make things different in many cases but it is remaining a
transport simulation strategy game and the people who like this kind of
games are gathering here and I think that people who play TT are very
interested in 3DTT. I hope really I am not wrong...

I shouldn't think you are wrong. Nearly every TT player is interested in
what is there in the line of sequels.

2. Since we are a limited number of people here who know each other we
should not think I dimensions of law, order and rules but should simply
represent what we would like to read and write here ourselves and what
not.
(I will respect if people do not like the 3DTT stuff here but please do
not
vote in the name of these people, vote for yourself only.)

Yes. The group is most definately more "intimate!" than other groups. I did
not say that I didn't like reading 3DTT problems, but what I don't like at
the moment is the current run of 3DTT problems posts, because I find them
irrelavent to my current situation, BUT I know that the thread has been very
helpful, and would be useful to anyone else experiencing them problems.

Eddie
-- http://www.ebernard.greatxscape.net

[Edward Bernard]

I'm against it all the way. I don't care what the message ratio is about
3DTT. It's "transport tycoon"... It doesn't make any sense at all to break
off yet. Maybe when 3DTT nears beta production or even post-beta. I don't
understand what the purpose would be when we can post here just as well.

--Spider--

At the end of this debate, I will present an opinion poll, hosted on a
website for everyone to take a vote on. Of course the vote would not be the
final decision, but it would be good to get a general idea of peoples
opinions.

Eddie
-- http://www.ebernard.greatxscape.net

[Edward Bernard]

Trikklennium <tri...@transport-tycoon.co.uk> wrote in message
Spider <askme...@myrealaddress.com> wrote in message

I'm against it all the way. I don't care what the message ratio is about
3DTT. It's "transport tycoon"... It doesn't make any sense at all to
break
off yet. Maybe when 3DTT nears beta production or even post-beta. I
don't
understand what the purpose would be when we can post here just as well.

Here, here....
I would like to second this by pointing out that as it is the next
generation in the TT family it *SHOULD* be included in this NG.

I agree.

If, once it has been released commertially, people would like there own NG
then fine. BUT until that time, any conversations pertaining to this game
would be best placed HERE.

And I agree that that would be the sensible and correct move, but OTOH,
people coming to this group might not be interested in TT sequels, just the
game. A group name of transport tycoon, to the reader represents that. It
does not represent any sequels. They would not want to download messages of
this sort, however, they could then user a filter. There are many sides to
this arguement, and I am trying to present them all. Ultimately it will be
extremely difficult to come to a decision.

Eddie
-- http://www.ebernard.greatxscape.net

[Edward Bernard]

Paul Wright <paul-wri...@SPAMSPAMSPAMu.genie.co.uk> wrote in message

maybe because some ppl might not be interested, and are downloading
useless
msgs, i think thats what eddies getting at, i mena, it is not transport
tycoon, peter said he didn't want a clone, and it isn't microprose either

I have not took a side in this arguement, but your opinions expressed here
are very valid, and will play an important part in the final decision.

Eddie
-- http://www.ebernard.greatxscape.net

[Edward Bernard]

Paul Wright <paul-wri...@SPAMSPAMSPAMu.genie.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OwtEU1XU$GA.355@cpmsnbbsa03...

amount of posts with the folllowing in:
3DTT: 121
Way-X: 55
3DTT Alpha: 23

'nuff said

I should imagine the number has gone up since this thread. But, I would
imagine the 3DTT number is more reliable. These occurances are not all in
separate posts, so it does not mean there are 199 posts on the subject, as
those words may appear in every 3DTT post.

Eddie
-- http://www.ebernard.greatxscape.net

[Spider]

amount of posts with the folllowing in:
3DTT: 121
Way-X: 55
3DTT Alpha: 23

How'd you get those numbers? Did you search? I would like to learn how to do
that, that would be cool.. (I have OE5)

'nuff said

Sorry but there's more to it than that..

--Spider--

[Paul Wright]

deja news

--
____________________________________________________________________

Paul Wright
ICQ UIN: 38986089
E-Mail: Ask me for it
___________________________________________________________________

Spider <askme...@myrealaddress.com> wrote in message
news:s6jiu3s75k2119@corp.supernews.com...
: >amount of posts with the folllowing in:
: >3DTT: 121
: >Way-X: 55
: >3DTT Alpha: 23
:
: How'd you get those numbers? Did you search? I would like to learn how to
do
: that, that would be cool.. (I have OE5)
:
: >'nuff said
:
: Sorry but there's more to it than that..
:
: --Spider--
:
:
:
:
:

[Bill Hayles]

On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 22:07:46 -0000, "Edward Bernard"
<e...@ttworld.the-whale.com> wrote:

I'm against it all the way. I don't care what the message ratio is about
3DTT. It's "transport tycoon"... It doesn't make any sense at all to break
off yet. Maybe when 3DTT nears beta production or even post-beta. I don't
understand what the purpose would be when we can post here just as well.

--Spider--

At the end of this debate, I will present an opinion poll, hosted on a
website for everyone to take a vote on. Of course the vote would not be the
final decision, but it would be good to get a general idea of peoples
opinions.

There are several here who also subscribe to uk.railway. They will be
painfully aware that every year somebody proposes, nay demands, that
uk.railway be split because, with anything up to 300 posts per day, the
group is, in their opinion, unmanageable. For a couple of weeks, this
thread is thrashed to death to the detriment of any real on topic talk,
and at the end of it it's decided to keep things as they are.

One broad church is, IMHO, better than lots of little ones. I would
much rather we stayed as one newsgroup as there is bound to be a lot of
cross platform discussion. If it were to split I would, naturally,
subscribe to both, but for myself I would prefer it not to happen.

In large groups, if there is a thread that doesn't interest me, I simply
skip it.


Felices Fiestas
El inglés loco
Bill Hayles
bill...@ctv.es

[Rémi Denis]

That's sure that most posts about 3DTT are strictly technical since the
Alpha 6 release and that many people don't like technical stuff, but opening
a new NG which won't be carried by our ISPs so that we won't be able to read
it, and that nobody will subscribe to - except people from AGMT-T *could*
have a very bad effect on the 3DTT future development.

I'd like to add that while debate about 3DTT dealt about gameplay, you were
glad to give your own ideas and suggestions, now that it became technical,
you seem to think it's not interesting (Okay, it's less) and you drop Peter
alone with his team. I find (that) that isn't very nice.

If there is still very much AGMT-T subscribers who are for Edward's
suggestion, it could be a good idea to create a 3DTT mailing-list instead of
a true NG, as every one can subscribe to a mailing-list as soon as it's
created.
ListBot is quite good at doing this job, although it now belongs to M.S.N.

Finally, as Rick said, this would probably be better to open an NG when 3DTT
would become more advanced. Maybe, it should be opened now, so as to «win»
part of the time which will be needed so as to be carried by our ISPs.


I hope I won't have done many spelling mistakes in this post.
Please count me as [against].
--
Rémi Denis-Courmont
someone available from TT-related things translation into French
http://www.multimania.com/rdenis/

[Rémi Denis]

Trikklennium <tri...@transport-tycoon.co.uk> a écrit dans le message :
84aegj$6k...@gxsn.com...

I would like to second this by pointing out that as it is the next
generation in the TT family it *SHOULD* be included in this NG.

If, once ot has been released commertially, people would like there own NG
then fine. BUT until that time, any conversations pertaining to this game
would be best placed HERE.


--
Rick McGreal

I totally agree with you.
There must be a reason why 3DTT is called « 3D TT », isn't it?
--
Rémi

[Vernon Moorhouse]

Definitely *against*

There have been a number of threads, since I found this group, on other
transport strategy simulations - RRT2, IG, Traffic Giant, Transport
World (h'mmm) even AIV Networks. These do not detract from the purpose
of discussing TTO/TTDLX as there is always a comparison to be made with
the 'mother of all transport strategy games.'
As has been said, maybe later when 3D TT has it's own publisher and is
released as a commercial venture there might be a case for starting up a
separate NG. At present I regard it as an adopted child of the parent
rather than a cuckoo in the nest and on this group is to be found the
wisdom and counsel to help develop the software in to the worthy
successor to TT which Chris Sawyer seems to have abandoned.

--
Vernon Moorhouse

Web site at http://www.moorhouse0.demon.co.uk/homepage.htm

[Edward Bernard]

Rémi Denis <rden...@pop3.multi1mania2.com> wrote in message

That's sure that most posts about 3DTT are strictly technical since the
Alpha 6 release and that many people don't like technical stuff, but
opening
a new NG which won't be carried by our ISPs so that we won't be able to
read
it, and that nobody will subscribe to - except people from AGMT-T *could*
have a very bad effect on the 3DTT future development.

Yes I have to agree with you there.

I'd like to add that while debate about 3DTT dealt about gameplay, you
were
glad to give your own ideas and suggestions, now that it became technical,
you seem to think it's not interesting (Okay, it's less) and you drop
Peter
alone with his team. I find (that) that isn't very nice.

That is nonsense. Did I say I wanted to drop Peter in it?
No. I said I am being impartial, and not taking sides. I was simply
presenting the case. The fact that technicalities are not interesting is
simply because if you are someone who has not had any problems, then you may
not want to read things about ttsetup.exe and OpenGL drivers. I for one
don't, but that *does not* then conclude that I want a group split.

If there is still very much AGMT-T subscribers who are for Edward's
suggestion, it could be a good idea to create a 3DTT mailing-list instead
of
a true NG, as every one can subscribe to a mailing-list as soon as it's
created.
ListBot is quite good at doing this job, although it now belongs to M.S.N.

'Tis my suggestion, but that does not mean they are what I want. Doesn't the
word "impartial" mean anything?

Finally, as Rick said, this would probably be better to open an NG when
3DTT
would become more advanced. Maybe, it should be opened now, so as to «win»
part of the time which will be needed so as to be carried by our ISPs.

Yes, and I agree with you there. It would surely make more sense...

BUT.....the earlier the group is created...the more servers it will go on,
and there will be a large network carrying it, ready for discussion once
it's release. This is a very critical factor. As usual, this is a proposal,
and an idea, and NOT my personal opinion, just what would seem to be common
sense.

Thanks,

Eddie
-- http://www.ebernard.greatxscape.net