Manual override of PBS?

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 26 Feb 2005 17:48

In the first PBS alpha, you could manually override an automatically generated PBS block. Most of the time this is good, but occasionally I have a block where PBS causes problems and I'd rather have a normal non-PBS presignal block. So I'd manually cycle through the signal types until I found the manual, non PBS presignal I wanted. In a43 this doesn't work anymore, or rather, it works, but the next time a train comes through, the block automatically changes to PBS again. I do want the PBS blocks to appear automatically, BUT if I manually set the signals in the block, then PBS shouldn't appear automatically. In other words, normal signals should automatically become PBS if appropriate, but manually set ones should be left alone. It used to work that way and now it doesn't.

Also, I thought a43 removed the prohibition of manually reversing a train in a PBS block. PBS works much more smoothly, for sure, but occasionally this is still a problem, and a train gets stuck where I can't reverse it.

Patchman · Post by **Patchman** » 26 Feb 2005 18:01

You have to cycle all signals leading into that block. If you miss one, the whole block will be converted into PBS again because either all or no signals going into it must be PBS

The second issue I've already fixed in a44.

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 26 Feb 2005 18:24

Yes, I know that you have to cycle all signals. That occurred to me. I looked very carefully to make sure I didn't miss one.

Admittedly I am using a somewhat odd signal configuration, but I used it before PBS signals and it worked beautifully. There are still some times it's the only way to get what I need working, to work - but I can't make it work if it keeps changing to PBS.

I'll double-check that I didn't miss any, but I'm pretty sure I didn't.

Patchman · Post by **Patchman** » 26 Feb 2005 18:48

If you have any two-way signals, make sure they don't get converted back to path-based from the other side...

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 26 Feb 2005 18:53

I don't think so but it never occurred to me to check that.

I will take a screenshot of the intersection and show you the problem, maybe you can identify what's wrong.

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 26 Feb 2005 20:40

OK, here is a screenshot.

I carefully manually changed all the signals to being manually not PBS. I double-checked to make sure I didn't miss a one, or any of the neighboring signals. Then as soon as a train entered, WHAM! All PBS again.

This is bad because a train can get trapped in the depot, facing out the wrong way, unable to reverse because it's in a PBS block.

I've used this array quite extensively without PBS and it works fine. I just have to get it to stay not PBS and all will be well.

Patchman · Post by **Patchman** » 26 Feb 2005 21:06

Which junction(s) am I supposed to look at here?

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 26 Feb 2005 21:46

It's the funny split entering the farm station (Bedinghead South), right after the signal tower Pletborough Farms CP. The idea was to let the inbound empty farm trains choose between the two lanes, going through their own depot. So I have to have bidirectional signals to allow the choice. But I don't want the trains coming back out the wrong way, so there's a one-way signal to trap them in there. I've done this before, and it works as long as I set the bi-directionals as combo signals and the one-way signals as pre-signal exits. And it works fine here too, the only trouble is that sometimes the trains come out of the depot the wrong way, butt up against the one-way signal, and can't reverse because the block with the depot in it is a PBS block. Can't imagine why that is.

Patchman · Post by **Patchman** » 26 Feb 2005 22:18

And you sure you have "miscmods.noautomaticpbsblocks on"? Then I'd like to see your ttdpatch.cfg and the savegame...

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 27 Feb 2005 02:12

No. I do NOT have that on, because I DO want PBS blocks to be generated automatically, normally. I just don't want them to be generated automatically so as to override signals that I have explicitly set manually as something else.

See, when you just plant a signal, and you query it, it says "Signal." If it happens to be part of a block that ought to be PBS, when a train goes through it, it will change into a PBS block. Then when you query that same signal, it will say "Signal (pre-signal [or whatever], path-based.) That's as it should be, unless you have noautomaticpbsblocks.

But when you plant a signal, THEN use [Ctrl] to cycle through it, it goes through the various presignal settings, then comes back to an ordinary plain signal. When you query it, it now says, "Signal (manual)." Even with automatic PBS blocks, a signal that was explicitly set at (manual) should NOT be overridden.

I realize that's not how it works currently. I thought that had been changed in a43, but apparently not. So really this should be a Suggestion not a Problem.

It's simply logical. If the user explicity goes to the bother of cycling through the signals to reach the (manual) setting, it's safe to assume they know what they're doing and set it the way they want it, and it shouldn't be automatically overridden by anything. But if a signal is just planted and left alone, then it makes sense to be automatically overridden, because it saves time on the part of the player.

Patchman · Post by **Patchman** » 27 Feb 2005 02:44

It's actually always been like that. With that switch off, the "manual" only applies to the pre-signal part.

You only have the option between all-automatic PBS or all-manual, it was never the case that you could override individual signals and have the rest automatic.

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 27 Feb 2005 02:48

OK, then this definitely becomes a suggestion. All it needs is as follows: Obviously you have some code that looks at signals to see whether it "ought to" be a PBS block. Make it check if any of the signals involved (or all, if it's easier) are "manual" set signals - and if they are, leave them alone. That's all.

Patchman · Post by **Patchman** » 27 Feb 2005 03:26

But that wouldn't work for people who set all the pre-signals manually but still want automatic PBS...

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 27 Feb 2005 03:33

Do people do that? Because the pre-signals are set automatically too.

And it sort of would work, because of course they can maually set them to use PBS. The result would be the same.

sobo · Post by **sobo** » 27 Feb 2005 19:46

Doesnt sound like a bad idea!

I use miscmods.noautomaticpbsblocks too because once in a while PBS totally f*** my junctions over. so a few blocks are better off being regualr presignalled blocks.

with this suggestion I could still make use of automatic pbs blocks and manually edit the really few that i want to be regular pre signalled blocks..

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 27 Feb 2005 19:51

Another way of doing it would be to make the code that turns blocks into PBS blocks automatically, to be not quite so agressive. One thing that would be helpful, and which would solve this and other problems, is for that code to see if there even ARE more than one possible path in the block, considering the directions of the signals. If not, then PBS is pointless and will only cause problems.

Patchman · Post by **Patchman** » 27 Feb 2005 20:21

krtaylor wrote:[...] is for that code to see if there even ARE more than one possible path in the block, considering the directions of the signals

You have no idea how complicated that would be...

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 28 Feb 2005 02:10

No, I guess not. You already have pathfinding code, of course, that's how PBS works. So I'd think you'd just use that. But you know better than I, for sure.

Szappy · Post by **Szappy** » 28 Feb 2005 08:01

OK, let me add my 2 cents. I think this is again a case, when krtaylor does not perfectly understand how a code works.

krtaylor, you say: set all signals leading into a juncion to manual, to have no auto pbs conversion
I say: no auto pbs conversion at all, set 1 signal to pbs, all others converted automatically (it's even less clicks than seting one signal to manual)

the patch can already do this

here's what I use.
- turn automatic presignals on
- turn automatic pbs off
What I get:
- presig blocks are generated automatically
- for pbs blocks to generate, I only need to set 1 signal to pbs, leading into that particular junction, and the patch converts all other signals leading into the same block to pbs, even if "miscmods.noautomaticpbsblocks" is on(I think this is the part krtaylor is not clear with)

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 28 Feb 2005 14:24

Hmm. I didn't know that. I'll try that.

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Manual override of PBS?

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