TT2 !! Why can't we make our own?

Hyronymus · Post by **Hyronymus** » 08 Jan 2003 17:23

Probably. I say give it a try, boy!

uzurpator · Post by **uzurpator** » 12 Jan 2003 19:57

o you want to make tt2 right? So here are things you must consider:

Game Engine:
1. Must be in 3d. I ask all 2d lovers to shut up - 3d is superior in all aspects - it offers all 2d can and A LOT more. Also - it will benefit from the hardware acceleration adn be easily scalable to new hardware. Also it will make building new objects intot he game an easy job - any one with some talent will be able to succed
2. Must be open - adding new tiles, buildings, industries, actions, vehicles must be as easy as possible. The good example here are Quake 3 *.pk3 files. they are zip archives with a proper directory structure. Game automaticly reads them and incorporates most, if not all addons intot he game. These are maps, skins, models etc.

Design:
1. It must be as addictive as TTD and should incorpoate most of ttdpatch switches. However all transport types must be balanced agains each other - not trains all the way.
2. Should incorporate strong Multiplayer. It must offer possibilitoes for many players to fight or cooperate to dominte the map or achieve some goal. (like monopoly, buying off an opponent, sabotaging his operation, advertising etc).
3. It should contain an AI that can actually play. (not like blind, brain dead ai of ttd).
4. The game difficulty should allow to play both TT noephytes as well as Hardcore ttd fans (like most of us)

Now that we have some basic information - time to write down the Design Doc (also known as The Tome Of All Knowledge). This document is mostly written by game designers - it contains all the game is supposed to have:

Map:
Structure, limiations, file format (an array of pointers seems to be the best), allowed values and objects, formulas to all the events etc.
Vehicles:
Specs, file format, formulas, objects allowed, methods etc.
etc:
Design doc must contain detailed information about the game - starting to write the software without it is pointless.

Now we can start to make the darn game.
The language is C++
One person must become game designer - he would write the esing doc and discuss the matter with the rest.
We need programmer skilled in 3d.
We need backup programmer, preferebly skilled in databases or sound engineering.
We need a few artists (this could be easy if proper tools were presented for the game)
And last - we need a sound artist amd a few testers.

Design doc: 3-4 months
Programming 12 months
Vehicles and objects 12 months
Assuming some overlapping - 18 months is a sensible time for the game to be built.
If it was done by proffesionals.
It will take around 3 yr to see a playable game from an open source project.

And as a cherry ontop the cake - a project for difficulty settings for TT2

number of computer opponents none/low/medium/high/custom
number of cities low/medium/normal/high/custom
number of industries low/medium/normal/high/custom
number of big cities 0-4
computer intelligence idiot/nut/moron/normal/genius/god
subsidy multipler 1,5/2/2,5/3/3,5/4/random/negotiated
economy steady/fluctuating
economy fluctuations low/medium/high/real
start economy state deep crisis/crisis/recession/normal/prosperity/boom/custom
politics capitalism/communism
max initial loan 50.000 - 1.000.000 pounds
loan intrest 0%-100%
inflation 0%-1000%/random
tax 0%-75%/random
road tax low/normal/high/random
customs 0%-400%/random
stock market on/simplified/off
cost of construction free/very low/low/normal/high/very high/impossible/real
maintenece cost free/very low/low/normal/high/very high/impossible/real
land cost free/very low/low/normal/high/very high/impossible/real
map size 128-128/256-256/512-512/random/custom/max
terrain type extremely flat/very flat/flat/hilly/mountainus/extremely mountainus/mixed
mountains type valley/dale/chain/all/random
amout of water none/little/some/normal/high/very high
water type river/lake/lake land/coast/central dale lake/cental valley river/all/random
islands type volcanic/atol/chain/all/random
track construction easy/normal/real
railroad signals easy/normal/real
road construction easy/normal/real
airfield construction easy/normal/real
disasters(earthquake/flood etc.)on/rare/off
accidents(bank robbery etc.) on/rare/off
sabotages on/off
weather influences land on/off
weather changes on/off
wather seasons on/off
ecology on/off
ecology disasters on/off
vehicle breakdowns none/rare/low/normal
starting year 1850-2000
play time 25/50/75/100/125/150/175/200/225/250 years/custom/till reaching objectives
starting vehicles 0/5/10/15 trucks
0/5/10/15 buses
0/1/2/3 trains
0/1/2/3 airplanes
0/1/2/3 ships
0/1/2/3 pipelines
0/1/2/3 power lines
starting lines quality worst possible/low/normal/good/random
treat years as days on/off

possible objectives
in 5-200 years have company worth of 5.000.000 - 2.000.000.000 pounds
in 5-200 years control 5-100% of existing transport market
in 5-200 years have wealth of 5.000.000 - 2.000.000.000 pounds
in 5-200 years control 5-100% < cargo type > transport market
in 5-200 years transport 10.000 - 100.000.000 units of cargo
have company worth of 5.000.000 - 2.000.000.000 pounds
control 5-100% of existing transport market
have wealth of 5.000.000 - 2.000.000.000 paunds
contol 5-100% < cargo type > transport market
transport 10.000 - 100.000.000 units of cargo
survive for 5-200 years
none

SHADOW-XIII · Post by **SHADOW-XIII** » 12 Jan 2003 20:02

WHOA

So we may start .....eerrrrr no .....

Lilman424 · Post by **Lilman424** » 12 Jan 2003 20:02

(yes, I'm obsessed with smilies)

!!! I hereby volunteer to be the first tester!

^^^Adam's army of porgrammers!

SHADOW-XIII · Post by **SHADOW-XIII** » 12 Jan 2003 20:05

Lilman424 wrote::I hereby volunteer to be the first tester!

Yes, sure !!!

and who write it before, any volunteers ??

Lilman424 · Post by **Lilman424** » 12 Jan 2003 20:07

Well you can't expect me to sign up for a programmer. I'm only 13; what do I know about prgramming?

:lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol::roll::lol:

SHADOW-XIII · Post by **SHADOW-XIII** » 12 Jan 2003 20:11

Lilman424 wrote:Well you can't expect me to sign up for a programmer. I'm only 13; what do I know about

You are not kidding ????? I was thinking you are older ?!?!?

Lilman424 · Post by **Lilman424** » 12 Jan 2003 20:12

nope I'm 13 and...10 days.

SHADOW-XIII · Post by **SHADOW-XIII** » 12 Jan 2003 20:14

Lilman424 wrote:nope I'm 13 and...10 days.

So ... HAPPY BIRTHDAY ... maybe a bit to late ....

Lilman424 · Post by **Lilman424** » 12 Jan 2003 20:17

go to the topic "BIRTHDAY!!!" In the general forum

Arathorn · Post by **Arathorn** » 12 Jan 2003 22:19

If you guys decide to make TT2 (not me I can't program), it may be a good idea to make a new thread for subscribing so you can conduct general discussion about it here so that you keep an overview on the whole project without it getting confusing.

SHADOW-XIII · Post by **SHADOW-XIII** » 12 Jan 2003 22:22

Arathorn wrote:If you guys decide to make TT2 (not me I can't program), it may be a good idea to make a new thread for subscribing so you can conduct general discussion about it here so that you keep an overview on the whole project without it getting confusing.

Hey... why everyone want test it .. or watch ... why should you try to make somethign to ttd2 ??? if you add some and I add some .. and every one person from forum add somethign .. we will have a game untill 2004

Arathorn · Post by **Arathorn** » 12 Jan 2003 22:24

I wasn't talking about testing, but programming. If everybody decides "just to make something", people will end up making things double or not compatible with each other.

spaceman-spiff · Post by **spaceman-spiff** » 12 Jan 2003 23:07

I'll make the coffee

ChrisCF · Post by **ChrisCF** » 13 Jan 2003 02:48

That'll be the one thing where compatibility isn't a problem. Unless of course you're a little too used to Microsoft Coffee ME. Terrible variety that was ...

I would volunteer to do some coding, if not for my complete and utter non-knowledge of C++ and utter can't-be-arsed-ness to learn it. Having said that, I do know some Java, and IMO (although it may be a little late to say so) it would be somewhat better if you were looking to make the game not just run on any platform, but run identically. There may be the odd issue with speed, but what effect is a small slowdown on a 500MHz+ machine going to have on gameplay?

Just another fully-refundable two-cents worth

Post by **orudge** » 13 Jan 2003 17:23

Lilman424 wrote:Well you can't expect me to sign up for a programmer. I'm only 13; what do I know about prgramming?

I could do basic BASIC programming when I was 7 or so.

SHADOW-XIII · Post by **SHADOW-XIII** » 13 Jan 2003 17:28

Owen .. not everyone are genius when they are 7

... I started programming when I was 14 (maybe a bit too late .... but it is my hobby)

Arathorn · Post by **Arathorn** » 13 Jan 2003 18:38

OK two basic things to decide now.
1.) 2D or 3D? Although 3D looks better can you guys program a 3D engine?
2.) Which program language?.

SHADOW-XIII · Post by **SHADOW-XIII** » 13 Jan 2003 18:53

Ad 1) I heard from many people that we should use 2D but I think that 3D is possible (of course a lot of work) but with very pretty interface it will look beautfull
Ad 2) Most of people want C++

rein · Post by **rein** » 13 Jan 2003 21:56

well Adam, nice job

but i've got some notes:

first of all, 3d engine wont be a nice support for such big game (i've got small experience in writing 3d engines, but it's enough for now),
3d strategies are very harmful for the speed and even best computer wont be able to render a giant map with lost of object and otker fooliage...
lest see, if observer's pitch wolud be lees that 45 (when 90 is top-down) and he stands in an edge of a map he wolud see whole map... and even best LOD algorythms wont get over the large amount of polys (up to milions) - another thing is useless of 3d engine it this kind of game, more important is gameplay than visual effects here, and coordinating camera with all moving vehicles at the same time seem to be bit trippy. (and i'm not a 2d lover !!!), the last thnig are 3d models, which are much more difficult to create that simple 2d bitmaps (e.g. textures), ok nevermind
Instead of full 3d engine we could use a new Othographic (dynamic Isometry) engine, included in newest SimCity4, yes thats much better, but all objects still need to be 3d, so the whole rendering would be slow as hell... heh, just take a look at http://simcity.ea.com/dev/3d.html

yes, flexibility of the engine is one of the most important issues in new games, but there's one thing you should keep eye on: multiplayer file consistency, if everyone had its own version of tt, it'd be almost impossible to play with others!

game engine - the possible way to increase the game's developing opportunities is to release sth like SDK (software development's kit) containing all not-engine code (i wont explain it here, jump to any Quake or Half-Life dev pages) - it would cause nice new mods appear

i cant say anything ab. multiplayer, because i dont have a clue about it, the same as for AI

game difficulty level shoud be fully customizable, only nice tutorials at the beginnig and nothing like: "easy", "medium", hard"

and now a little programming clues :

language: C++ (better use structures instead of classes)

the map, hmm... tile based of course (i realise that here aren't any hardcore-game-makers

), it's the most simple and useful for such game. The simple array wont be enough. I'd prefer dynamic structures like one-direct list of tiles (each has a pointer to the next in array), like this:

Code: Select all

struct m_sTile {
	struct m_sTile *next; 		// pointer to next in list
	char height;                               // height abive the ground
	{ some graphic data - pointer to gfx tiles structure }
	{ tile's flags describing the field eg. water, grass, rocks, etc }
};

and of course an array constaining all linked tiles - and here predefined size would be worse that dynamic memory allocation:

m_sTile **MapArray;
{...}
MapArray = new (m_sTile*)[map_width*map_height];
{...}

as for the file format, i really have no idea, maybe compressing all tiles' variables into simple ASCII characters

- but that wont be a problem

all vehicles - dosnt even need explanation - structures (or classes if you really want), but there is one hardy thingy : path finding (A* is the most popular algorythm for finding the shortest way from ponit A to B but however it works fine with open space maps, in game where vehicles can run only on roads or railways i'm not 100 percent sure of using it) - and the signals...for trains... but thats all possible, isnt it ?

well Adam, you gave us whole listing of deatiled purposes about hte game - that was pointless... the engine must be created to allow develpoers community to make the game most optimal in settings.
It shouldnt be done by game designers but by the players... and then eventually accepted and made as standart...

heh, you wrote even an exact time needed to make code finished

12 months? - ow, maybe if this was a commercial product

but because it would be an open-source project, made by not-profesional programers it will never be finished... yes, sad but true

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If You (all) want to really create a new game based on TT, why don't create a separate General Forum where links to some tutorials (on programming or gamin dev) and resources (or even some code an algorythms) would be posted ?

- yes, i'm sick

but when i see how hooked you are on creating new TT... LoL

The alst thing: what graphic library to use?

DirectX (im out) for 3d engine

OpenGL (better) for 3d or semi-3d one

Allegro (best) for 2d engine (and even 2.5d-SimCity4 )
personally I can say that the Allegro is the best and most simple lib i've ever seen and used

and sorry for awful writing, im sooo tired...

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