Maintenance Vehicles [why and how discussion]
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Maintenance Vehicles [why and how discussion]
While there is a thread in Graphics section regarding the mainetance vehicles development (follow link in my sig), in this topic we should discuss and find out the best way how to use them. Any ideas are therefor wellcome.
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Born Acorn
- Tycoon
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I like this idea, but how would you set orders for the train (checkpoints maybe) or it could just wander around randomly and you could order it to a certain tile When you need a certain section done.Born Acorn wrote: should work with rusty tracks to help keep maximum track speed.
Also how fast should it go when fixing the tracks?-it can't go too slow.
This also sounds good, but what should happen when other trains are banked up behind the crash? How would the maintenance vehicle get to the crash?Born Acorn wrote: should repair tracks that trains have crashed on
should make crashed trains and crashed vehicles on crossing disappear
"Set fashion, not follow. Spit vitriol, not swallow" - Marilyn Manson
Feature Creep is a known killer of open-source projects. I voted no, cause I think track maintenance adds too little fun (and possibly too much frustration) to the actual gameplay to be given any kind of priority at this time.
On the scale of macromanagement vs. micromanagement, I believe these are too far on the micromgmt side to fit in the current gameplay model. Like Newtonian physics in a space-combat game, some "realism" features harm gameplay rather than help it. Personally, I think this is one of those. I might change my opinion in the future, but for the time being, there you have it.
The "decorative" option would work for me, as a gesture to the artists and their work (but if they were decorative, they'd just clog up the junctions not actually doing anything, so this doesn't really work either).
On the scale of macromanagement vs. micromanagement, I believe these are too far on the micromgmt side to fit in the current gameplay model. Like Newtonian physics in a space-combat game, some "realism" features harm gameplay rather than help it. Personally, I think this is one of those. I might change my opinion in the future, but for the time being, there you have it.
The "decorative" option would work for me, as a gesture to the artists and their work (but if they were decorative, they'd just clog up the junctions not actually doing anything, so this doesn't really work either).
Sometimes the same is different, but mostly, it's the same.
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Mad Dog McKill
- President
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- Location: Singapore but originally Moscow
Make maintainance vehicles just an eye candy... please..
TT/TTD/OTTD were the very few games that were causing almost 0 frustration for me... with this new micromanagement feature, this might change...
TT/TTD/OTTD were the very few games that were causing almost 0 frustration for me... with this new micromanagement feature, this might change...
OT: By FIREMARK: "Limitation disturbs me very sprites. Goes it throw out limitation?"
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I'm all for the opensource "put whatever you want in" ideal but there should be a limit:
First, make sure that there is ALWAYS a "standard" TTD option so traditionalists can get rid of rubbish they don't want.
Second, make sure every "enhancement" can be switched on and off individually. E.g. I want rusty tracks and maintenance vehicles but no passenger-dependent destinations etc.
This will make sure that development to these areas is contained to a small clique of developers who are willing to work on those areas and not burden the other developers with having to work round other peoples patches.
This will also ensure that as soon as a feature isn't being developed any more (lack of interest, no developers, no graphics etc.) it can be quickly and easily removed.
I'm all for ideas for enchancement, I have tons myself, but I think we should try our best to stick to the basic game idea (Open-source TTD and features from TTDPatch) and have anything past that idea sectioned off appropriately.
First, make sure that there is ALWAYS a "standard" TTD option so traditionalists can get rid of rubbish they don't want.
Second, make sure every "enhancement" can be switched on and off individually. E.g. I want rusty tracks and maintenance vehicles but no passenger-dependent destinations etc.
This will make sure that development to these areas is contained to a small clique of developers who are willing to work on those areas and not burden the other developers with having to work round other peoples patches.
This will also ensure that as soon as a feature isn't being developed any more (lack of interest, no developers, no graphics etc.) it can be quickly and easily removed.
I'm all for ideas for enchancement, I have tons myself, but I think we should try our best to stick to the basic game idea (Open-source TTD and features from TTDPatch) and have anything past that idea sectioned off appropriately.
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lucaspiller
- Tycoon
- Posts: 1228
- Joined: 18 Apr 2004 20:27
I think tracks should have an age rating and reliability rating. As they get older the reliability rating goes down and trains have to go slower, this can then be fixed by having a maintenance train drive over them (stopping would take too long). When they get really old they would have to be replaced (because the reliability rating would drop faster) and the vehicle should go slower.
No longer active here, but you can still reach me via email: luca[at]stackednotion[dot]com
would we actually "buy" a MTV and let it run on the rails, or would we jut click "renew rails" button and watch the train run on it?lucaspiller wrote:I think tracks should have an age rating and reliability rating. As they get older the reliability rating goes down and trains have to go slower, this can then be fixed by having a maintenance train drive over them (stopping would take too long). When they get really old they would have to be replaced (because the reliability rating would drop faster) and the vehicle should go slower.
We could use the during the building phase: (if this function is ever supported) (you buy the land, you plan the track, you pres build button and you watch the rails beeing build) while the rails are beeing layed, some vehicles could be seen working on it.
and after a crash (or derail), a MTV would appear there and helped removing the debris.
You could also have a "special" depot, which wouldn't be placed anywhere on the map, but which would show how many (and which types) of MTV's do you own (which would be bought like normal engines (would cost money to purchase, mainetance, running costs), but things like the speed of construction would depend on how many MTV's do you own.
Aye aye. I think it would be best if it was more automated than micromanagement. For example, you get delayed cleanup times without vehicles. More vehicles means you can clean up more spills and faster. Replacing track though could get expensive and potentially micromanagement when done too much.
We eliminated micromanagement of replacing vehicles. Why do we have to add micromanagement of replacing rails and cleaning them and everything else? it might just be easier to make two classes:
1. An MTV class that is eye candy that is necessary to clean up road wrecks and so forth (one per network, so it's a disincentive to making P2P lines) as well as other things. It would not be affected by trains in the way as it would only appear as needed and not act as a separate train.
2. An MTV car that can be attached to trains to keep tracks from becoming rusty and causing accidents from derailments. This might be easily rolled into the above (by monitoring which tracks are getting rusty and automatically cleaning them, slowly if you buy one, and quicker if you buy more.)
If you've ever played SimTower and had to deal with Housekeeping for hotel rooms, you probably understand what I'm getting at in terms of automated, with more MTV stations being better.
Basically, make us buy MTVs, but not tell them where to go or what to do.
As an extension, some may claim that this would also be necessary for streets you own. The more cars that drive down them and the older they are, the more likely they need repaving, which would act as a stopped car that moved very slowly that buses and trucks would have to pass by using a logical algorithm, thus cdausing a choke point =P
We eliminated micromanagement of replacing vehicles. Why do we have to add micromanagement of replacing rails and cleaning them and everything else? it might just be easier to make two classes:
1. An MTV class that is eye candy that is necessary to clean up road wrecks and so forth (one per network, so it's a disincentive to making P2P lines) as well as other things. It would not be affected by trains in the way as it would only appear as needed and not act as a separate train.
2. An MTV car that can be attached to trains to keep tracks from becoming rusty and causing accidents from derailments. This might be easily rolled into the above (by monitoring which tracks are getting rusty and automatically cleaning them, slowly if you buy one, and quicker if you buy more.)
If you've ever played SimTower and had to deal with Housekeeping for hotel rooms, you probably understand what I'm getting at in terms of automated, with more MTV stations being better.
Basically, make us buy MTVs, but not tell them where to go or what to do.
As an extension, some may claim that this would also be necessary for streets you own. The more cars that drive down them and the older they are, the more likely they need repaving, which would act as a stopped car that moved very slowly that buses and trucks would have to pass by using a logical algorithm, thus cdausing a choke point =P
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Joker
- Transport Coordinator
- Posts: 259
- Joined: 01 Oct 2004 12:16
- Location: Earth, Europe, Czech Republic, Prague
IMHO it's too complicated. Maybe depots could automatically contain such a train, so you could have better speeds and so by building depots.
Or maintenance trains just as eye-candy - they're automatically in each depot and in case of crash would go from the depot and remove the crashed vehicle. When maintenance vehicle can't reach crashed vehicle, crashed vehicle will disappear after some (maybe longer) time.
So, to sum up: just as eye candy, like the vehicles that repair roads when you buy "local road reconstruction"
Or maintenance trains just as eye-candy - they're automatically in each depot and in case of crash would go from the depot and remove the crashed vehicle. When maintenance vehicle can't reach crashed vehicle, crashed vehicle will disappear after some (maybe longer) time.
So, to sum up: just as eye candy, like the vehicles that repair roads when you buy "local road reconstruction"
- Tracks get rusty, and the maximum speed limit drops.2. An MTV car that can be attached to trains to keep tracks from becoming rusty and causing accidents from derailments. This might be easily rolled into the above (by monitoring which tracks are getting rusty and automatically cleaning them, slowly if you buy one, and quicker if you buy more.)
- You can buy Wagons that fix the trains, those are put into nomral compilations (or on extra trains if you like) That train runs normally except when it is rolling on rusty tracks. There that train gets very slow, and leaves blank tracks.
-> no micro management
Clearly this has no priority in my view. Bigger maps, non- straight tunnels, underwater tunnels, passenger destinations, bigger maps (I mentioned it, but its so important you cant mention it enough :-)
Also programable signals would be great.
Last edited by swiitsch on 02 Oct 2004 16:09, edited 1 time in total.
MTV types:
(PL)platelayer: building new tracks
(TMTV)tracks MTV: cleaning rusty tracks, repairing tracks after crashes, derails
(OWMTV)overhead wire MTV: repairing overhead wires
(CR)crane: removing crashed or and railing derailed vehicles
USE:
Player can buy any ammount of mainetance vehicles, all of them are stored in a "special" depot, which is not placed on the map, but is accesible via menus.
All of these vehicles have a purchase cost, selling cost and mainetance cost. Mainetance cost will be much lower, compared to normal engines, but will also depend on how often the vehicle is used (see later on)
At the beginning of the game, player is provided with one of each type (except OWMTV, this one is provided only if el. rails are available at the beginning of the game [which might be possible with some newGRF sets])
free of charge.
each MTV will have it's working speed (time needed to finish work on one tile or one action (eg. crash)) and newer vehicles will have higher working speed. A player must own at least one of each type, the last one couldn't be sold.
When vehicle is beeing used, it will be displayed shaded in the MTV depot, and each vehicle can be used at only one place (see later on)
Each vehicle will appear on the place they will be working on, and dissapear when no longer used, except the next working tile is just next to it - then it would move there (but it would use exactly the same time, as if it was teleporting somewhere else)
Platelayer: when build track order is given, instead of beeing build instantly, only preparations for the track will be displayed. Platelayers will start building the tracks slowly (If you have more platelayes, then they all ould start working, each one on it's own tile, and when the tile is finished, it would move to another one ( a 40 square track would take 200 seconds to build with one platelayer, but only 100 seconde with two and so on))
OR
platelayers replace tracks, when the order is given (see later on)
TMTV: Rail track should have two types of reliability: 1) mechanical - decresed in time, 2) grass - decrese in time faster then mechanical, but can be improved by using the rails (this one leeds to "rusty tracks")
TMTV will start repairing the tracks (and increasing the "grass" reliability) either when a specific command is given (repair this track - repairs, drag and drop over the rail, or "all connecting track" option), or when grass reliability of the rail drops under allowed level (options-repairs-clean track when grass reliability drops under xx% (selectable)),this levels would also be adjustable for mechanical reliability (platelayers would replace tracks) and for overhead wires(OWMTV would increase their reliability). These procedures would cost money and also, when a tile would be worked on, it would be impossible for other trains to use the tile.
OWMTV: renewing overhead wire reliability.
CR: When a crash or dearil happens, crane will appear there and start working on remowing it. Will be also used when stations and bridges were beeing build.
Each process would reqire a specific MTV to work on it, and if ALL availabe MTVs of the specific type are beeing used, then other orders must wait until some are finished with previous work and ready to be used again.
Reliability types:
Mechnical: max reliability start at 100%, and track will be give this reliability when build, cannot be increased by repairing, track must be renewed. (MAX reliability will increase by 1% every 5 years, so track built in 1920 will hold shorter then track built in 1950). Reliability should lower 2% each year, the chance of derail will allways be there, but would slightly increase, as the reliability would decrese. Track should start te be dangerous when reliability drops below 50% (after 25 years) and since then the max allowed speed would start decreasing.
Grass: max reliability 100% allways, drops 10% per year, droping stops when reliability reaches the "use" rate, which will be calculated total carridges (locos AND vagons) per 3? months. unused tracks will drop to 0%. From 50%, the max speed allowed will be reduced.
Overhead wire reliability: starts at 100% drops 4% per year, since 60% reliability, there is a chance of wires beeing torn down (on each single section) again, increasing, as the reliability drops. Increasing the reliability with OWMTV should be wery cheap, while repairing a broken one should be for full price. When a tore down happens ALL electric engines, on the same rail, in a 25? square vincity suffer a breakdown (power off- therefore no black smoke), until the broken part is repaired.
LONG IT WAS, BUT OVER IT IS (for now) comment, suggestions welcome.
(PL)platelayer: building new tracks
(TMTV)tracks MTV: cleaning rusty tracks, repairing tracks after crashes, derails
(OWMTV)overhead wire MTV: repairing overhead wires
(CR)crane: removing crashed or and railing derailed vehicles
USE:
Player can buy any ammount of mainetance vehicles, all of them are stored in a "special" depot, which is not placed on the map, but is accesible via menus.
All of these vehicles have a purchase cost, selling cost and mainetance cost. Mainetance cost will be much lower, compared to normal engines, but will also depend on how often the vehicle is used (see later on)
At the beginning of the game, player is provided with one of each type (except OWMTV, this one is provided only if el. rails are available at the beginning of the game [which might be possible with some newGRF sets])
free of charge.
each MTV will have it's working speed (time needed to finish work on one tile or one action (eg. crash)) and newer vehicles will have higher working speed. A player must own at least one of each type, the last one couldn't be sold.
When vehicle is beeing used, it will be displayed shaded in the MTV depot, and each vehicle can be used at only one place (see later on)
Each vehicle will appear on the place they will be working on, and dissapear when no longer used, except the next working tile is just next to it - then it would move there (but it would use exactly the same time, as if it was teleporting somewhere else)
Platelayer: when build track order is given, instead of beeing build instantly, only preparations for the track will be displayed. Platelayers will start building the tracks slowly (If you have more platelayes, then they all ould start working, each one on it's own tile, and when the tile is finished, it would move to another one ( a 40 square track would take 200 seconds to build with one platelayer, but only 100 seconde with two and so on))
OR
platelayers replace tracks, when the order is given (see later on)
TMTV: Rail track should have two types of reliability: 1) mechanical - decresed in time, 2) grass - decrese in time faster then mechanical, but can be improved by using the rails (this one leeds to "rusty tracks")
TMTV will start repairing the tracks (and increasing the "grass" reliability) either when a specific command is given (repair this track - repairs, drag and drop over the rail, or "all connecting track" option), or when grass reliability of the rail drops under allowed level (options-repairs-clean track when grass reliability drops under xx% (selectable)),this levels would also be adjustable for mechanical reliability (platelayers would replace tracks) and for overhead wires(OWMTV would increase their reliability). These procedures would cost money and also, when a tile would be worked on, it would be impossible for other trains to use the tile.
OWMTV: renewing overhead wire reliability.
CR: When a crash or dearil happens, crane will appear there and start working on remowing it. Will be also used when stations and bridges were beeing build.
Each process would reqire a specific MTV to work on it, and if ALL availabe MTVs of the specific type are beeing used, then other orders must wait until some are finished with previous work and ready to be used again.
Reliability types:
Mechnical: max reliability start at 100%, and track will be give this reliability when build, cannot be increased by repairing, track must be renewed. (MAX reliability will increase by 1% every 5 years, so track built in 1920 will hold shorter then track built in 1950). Reliability should lower 2% each year, the chance of derail will allways be there, but would slightly increase, as the reliability would decrese. Track should start te be dangerous when reliability drops below 50% (after 25 years) and since then the max allowed speed would start decreasing.
Grass: max reliability 100% allways, drops 10% per year, droping stops when reliability reaches the "use" rate, which will be calculated total carridges (locos AND vagons) per 3? months. unused tracks will drop to 0%. From 50%, the max speed allowed will be reduced.
Overhead wire reliability: starts at 100% drops 4% per year, since 60% reliability, there is a chance of wires beeing torn down (on each single section) again, increasing, as the reliability drops. Increasing the reliability with OWMTV should be wery cheap, while repairing a broken one should be for full price. When a tore down happens ALL electric engines, on the same rail, in a 25? square vincity suffer a breakdown (power off- therefore no black smoke), until the broken part is repaired.
LONG IT WAS, BUT OVER IT IS (for now) comment, suggestions welcome.
a good thing: instead placing directly the rail, you place the depot and from the depot you start placing the rail, but will not be placed the rail, instead will be placed the path where the rail will be built by a maintenance vehicle which is come out of the depot...
like sim city 4 railroad construction, you place the railroad, the railroad still be white until the maintenance vehicle pass on it building the "chip" of track
like sim city 4 railroad construction, you place the railroad, the railroad still be white until the maintenance vehicle pass on it building the "chip" of track
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mbarashkov
- Engineer
- Posts: 21
- Joined: 29 Jun 2004 14:38
I suggest the following:
Rail maintenance is performed only through macromanagement, i.e. you only have to adjust maintenance budgets.
But it shouldn't be very simple. First of all, it would be great if we could set different maintenance budgets for different track sections. Probably these sections should be distinguished by number of trains in a month. SO we have the budget split:
Allocate 70% of maximum possible maintenance budget
Of them, 50% should go to the most used tracks,
30% - to the middle-used,
20% - to the low-used,
0% - to tracks that aren't used.
Track maintenance shoud be VERY expensive, just like in real life. We should have a window that shows our rail network with track conditions in color ranging from red to green.
Bad track conditions should result in low top speed. Also, train and wagons reliability should go down faster on a bad track. Possibly, ratings for passengers should go down, too (people like smooth rides).
When funding levels change, tracks should change their condition not instantly, but in some 3-6-12 months.
Also it would be cool if we can have tool like "major repairs" that will make instant major repairs on a track tile. It is useful if we want to, for example. open a passenger line on tracks that are in a very bad condition.
Rail maintenance is performed only through macromanagement, i.e. you only have to adjust maintenance budgets.
But it shouldn't be very simple. First of all, it would be great if we could set different maintenance budgets for different track sections. Probably these sections should be distinguished by number of trains in a month. SO we have the budget split:
Allocate 70% of maximum possible maintenance budget
Of them, 50% should go to the most used tracks,
30% - to the middle-used,
20% - to the low-used,
0% - to tracks that aren't used.
Track maintenance shoud be VERY expensive, just like in real life. We should have a window that shows our rail network with track conditions in color ranging from red to green.
Bad track conditions should result in low top speed. Also, train and wagons reliability should go down faster on a bad track. Possibly, ratings for passengers should go down, too (people like smooth rides).
When funding levels change, tracks should change their condition not instantly, but in some 3-6-12 months.
Also it would be cool if we can have tool like "major repairs" that will make instant major repairs on a track tile. It is useful if we want to, for example. open a passenger line on tracks that are in a very bad condition.
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