Planeset [version 1.5.3 released 2006-10-24]

[SquireJames]

Fraid not. It gives

Powerplant/s (and Thrust)
Dimensions
Weights (Empty Operation, and MTOW)
Performance (Speed and Range)
Seating (Amount and in what class)

but no running costs or purchase costs. I suppose this is because those largely depend ob the engine config and setup that you choose as an Airline when buying an aircraft.

[krtaylor]

OK, I am updating the sprites. I have a few questions:

1. Why is the A380 in there twice? Both versions look the same.

2. It looks like you haven't yet included all the livery variants for the Concorde? Or is that waiting for the non-company-color version?

3. Some of the planes already have a version in a real livery, for instance the B737. Did you update the tailfins on those too? If so, can I have the updated files?

4. I take it that the 7E7's pallette hasn't been fixed yet? Is that the only one?

I think I've updated everything, but if you see something I missed, say so.

Looking at the list, it's amazing - it's almost done! At least for the company-color versions anyway. The only planes we have left are the Shorts 330, and the pallette-corrected 7E7! And there's a couple helicopters and zeppelins. I'm looking forward to nilsi's Zeppelins, and the S-58 helicopter won't be hard. That just leaves the Osprey and Chinook, and I think the drawing of them, at least, shouldn't be too difficult considering some of the things we've already accomplished. I think there'll be a public version out soon.

But we do need costing information. Perhaps a lurker in this thread has some ideas? That's always been a big pain with the train sets.

[scottishasttdx]

Well, I could always pose as an entrepreneur and ask the companies directly what their aircraft cost etc, and what the average running cost is

As for the 7E7, it is company colour, but i believe the palette is wrong (and it isn't 8-bit, afaik) I'll fix it just now...
edit, its now 8-bit, but I believe the other problem was 459 thought the aircraft looked to thin for a widebody design.

[krtaylor]

Yeah, it is actually a little thin. It looks like an MD88.

[459]

I experimented with aircraft pricing and noticed that it starts from the same point whether you started in 1930, 1950, 1975. The game doesn't seem to calculate inflation between 1920-1975 to vehicle prices. The inflation percentage is the "interest rate" in the game. Seems like TTDPatch isn't able to calculate inflation for years between 1920 and beginning of the game. Whether it's a good or bad thing, keep reading: It'd be quite s*** to start new game in 1975 with such calculation system because the vehicle prices would've soared to heavens - you should have extra starting money with according percentage. For instance with 3% yearly inflation from 1920 to 1975 the prices would be 5.1 times higher than in the beginning of the game. This means that a original TTD style compromise pricing but with oddities fixed such as sky-high MD-80 running costs and expensive early prop planes is needed.

Now I've done some sort of pricing. It's in the latest WIP and in the planelist. Say your initial comments about the pricing system (anomalities etc.) so I can do something to them and put the Planeset into full 1950-2050 test play. I know without telling that adjustment range for running costs is insufficient if you find out that planes are making you A LOT of money. There's the new refitting and these new planes that are way bigger than original TTD planes.

I'd like to have some kind of support for TTDPatch where you can describe separate cargo carrying tonnage for all airplanes independent of pax/mail capacity (value between 0...255 should be enough). Also, more adjustment range for running costs is in my wishlist.

[459]

A380 is there twice because zero1000 has drawn small lights to it when it's in ground. I don't know how useful it is but I've taken the sprites directly from zero1000's own build.

What is it with Concorde? Are those multiple liveries there because someone is planning that they'd change depending on year?

I haven't fixed the livery version tailfins.

An-124 palette is wrong, too but I still don't like the shape of it's wings.

That 7E7 needs some extra size (it hasn't changed ).

Tracking table: Put those current 747 EUD graphics to 747-400. And don't credit me on DC-6, it's completely unmodified.

[Axlrose]

I do not have any hard facts concerning initial purchasing or operating costs for neither planes nor trains. But I am willing to do some number crunching with potential starting costs if nobody wants the task.

I will use as examples both this plane set and the U.S. train set since both seem to be on extreme ends. For planes - I believe even with today's usage for world transport, the initial costs of purchasing a plane should be high. It is a luxury compared to other means of transport. The operating costs should be high too, since a customer is paying for the flight, the airport usage costs, the fuel and people involved with the plane, and within the game, the speed of transporting across the screen. Yet the cost should not be exponential in nature. The cost of operating a supersonic should be parallel to the cost of operating a 747. The former would be higher overall since transport is faster overall. Or in layman's terms, if the supersonic transports four times as fast as the 747, the operating costs should be at least four times as much too.

For trains, I believe the operating costs should be proportional to the overall horsepower and speed of the train in question. The "Big Boy" pulling a long haul up some mountain side should have plenty of wear and tear upon its engine and internals which translates into the higher operating costs. Yet other small factors could play a role too. Those engines that seem to be partial passenger cars should have a higher cost since upkeep to customer's comforts takes a toll. I am not sure how extensive the patch could determine vehicle to year, but the early years of train should have steam cheap compared to diesel and electric. But as the years advance, steam should become more costly to operate - labor and parts are not so readily available any longer. Yet with each era of train: steam, electric, diesel, monorail, maglev, etc. should have the lowest operating costs proportional to the current era while trains from yesterday should be costly. That is, steam in the maglev era would be astronomical to operate while the maglev would be quite proportional to that old steam during the steam's prime years.

In the early years of the game, airplane operating costs should be the highest costs since the field is ~new~. Yet as the years advance, the costs should slowly balance out. The advancement of planes would make things cheaper overall, yet still a higher cost to operate. If plotted, the costs would be a steady increasing line. Meanwhile, trains would be cheap and get expensive for each era of the train. During the steam era, steam engines are cheaper to operate than the expensive electric trains. But as the years advance, electric becomes cheaper, steam becomes expensive, and diesel costs even more since it is new and more powerful. As the diesels become prominent, steam is quite costsly for what is being offered, electric is costly since it is old, diesel is the means, and monorail cost even more since it is new and more powerful. If plotted, the costs would appear as a u-shaped, or inverted bell curve, with the lowest costs during that particular train's golden era.

I hope I did not confuse too many people.
>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<

[krtaylor]

A380 is there twice because zero1000 has drawn small lights to it when it's in ground. I don't know how useful it is but I've taken the sprites directly from zero1000's own build.

I see. Is there a reason we want the lights on the ground, but not in the air?

What is it with Concorde? Are those multiple liveries there because someone is planning that they'd change depending on year?

Yes, that's exactly it.

I haven't fixed the livery version tailfins.

Ah. Please do when you get the chance, so we don't get too confused.

An-124 palette is wrong, too but I still don't like the shape of it's wings.

Can you fix both at once, or does someone else need to volunteer to do that?

That 7E7 needs some extra size (it hasn't changed ).

Yes, I think you are right.

Tracking table: Put those current 747 EUD graphics to 747-400.

Say what? I thought I updated the 747-400. And you haven't changed the KLM-livery one yet, have you? BTW, I don't like the normal 747, you can't see the hump in the diagonal views.

[zero1000]

on the a380: there is no reason to use the wing ligths only on ground. i was playing around with the possibilty to use different graphics for air and landing/taxi way/take off (like dinges with the concorde - nose up and down).

[Villem]

I thought airplanes used the wing lights only when landing, taking off, and when its night..

[way2good]

when the 7E7 was larger it looked like a jumbo jet =P

[459]

Please say your word about the pricing system I implemented in the new patch. For reference, in this file is the pricing for original unmod'd TTD planes. The pricing system for Planeset is in the XLS file included in the latest WIP.

[krtaylor]

I haven't been able to play it through and test all the prices.

My suggestion is not to worry too much about the prices just yet, because balancing them requires a LOT of playtesting, and our team is too small to do it thoroughly. I'd say we should finish the planes we can, and then release (and announce) a public beta. If there's a problem with the prices, people will find it for us and let us know.

So, that means we just need to finish:
- Sikorsky S-58 - conventional helicopter
- Shorts 330 - conventional prop-plane
- AN-124 - glitch-fix
- Boeing 7E7 - glitch-fix

The zeppelins and advanced helicopters can be added as we get to them, but it seems like it would be pretty easy to finish off the above four. Then we can release a public beta, and continue work on what's left as well as fixing whatever bugs are found. I'd say we could have a public beta out by next week, do you think?

Mod, can you put "beta release soon" in the thread title? This needs more promotion I think.

[459]

Well, somebody just has to draw them. For me the WIP is OK for public beta now even if we didn't get the remaining planes yet. Docs need some polishing but probably there's nothing else right now.

[krtaylor]

Well, OK then, why don't we change the topic title to read, "Public beta RELEASED"

[Axlrose]

I would think that purchasing and operating costs should begin being factored into the set. The graphics are basically eye candy. Creating a set where numerous helicopters and planes are evenly spread across a one hundred year gaming session with initial and subsequent upkeep costs will be a difficult task. If too many planes are created to appear as jumbo jets, then during the era of the small airport will be limited a handful of small jets with appearances of some planes that just would not "look" correctly. Add that people working on graphics would want their works to be prominent in the game, costs might be adjusted to allow a bit of bias.

Just my thoughts.
>>>>>Axlrose - ...<<<<<

[krtaylor]

Well, we've made it so that "small-airport-compatible" planes are available through the entire length of the set. We do have to include a more modern-looking small airport in the set, for when you build one more recently at a smaller town. I think there will be pricing info in the next release, right 459?

[RPharazon]

Isn't the 7E7 supposed to have up-tilted tiplets?
It doesn't look very much like the drawing, and its wings look very weird, and not very right in the horizontals.
Or is it supposed to be that way?

</endsuggestions>

[459]

I'll put some comments about pricing to the Planeset documentation. Will be released soon. At the moment I don't have any changes to actual GRF file.

[459]

This is the latest Planeset with updated docs included. This is called the Public BETA version 20/Aug/04. No updates into GRF since 18/Aug/04 WIP build included.