Planeset [version 1.5.3 released 2006-10-24]

[RPharazon]

Did anybody say tweaking?
I'm back from my vacation, and I can tweak that no problem.
Just give me a day to set up everything.

[459]

I gave some effort for a JU52 tweak that should do as Ford 5-AT Tin Goose.

I need your opinions of it. Especially interested I'm in opinions of how successful I was in modifying the sprite from low-wing monoplane to high-wing monoplane (shape, wing location, shading), just for future. If this looks good enough for krtaylor, it's a good thing Otherwise, it's time for further development.

Krtaylor: If you don't have any good reason to object, would you mark all airplanes using TTD's own sprites "Finished and ready for use" (DC-3, B747 mk.1, DC-10, Sikorsky S61 (I think it's the original "Sikorsky helicopter" of TT), Super Puma, MD-80, B777) if not already. There's green or yellow in several of those vehicles.

[CyberBoy]

We aren't using the AT-3, But it would make a good AT-5!

[459]

OK, my fault. It was supposed to be the 5-AT.

[krtaylor]

I think that Trimotor is just fine, actually. The only thing that strikes me as not quite right is that, in some of the views, such as the going-directly-away view, the ends of the main wings are too tapered and pointy. From the photo, it looks like the wings were basically the same width all the way along until the very end, when they had a fairly abrupt rounded end. But otherwise, I think it looks fine.

As requested, I am altering the tracking table, and adding a new color to the legend to indicate when a plane is useable, but not quite right for some reason, which will be noted. That should clear things up.

The S-61 doesn't look anything like TTD's helicopters, it needs to be drawn. Perhaps you're thinking of the Puma Eurocopter, which is fairly similar to the Tricario.

Every undrawn vehicle which I think has a reasonable analogue in original TTD sprites, is so noted; those which don't, aren't. If you want to suggest a specific one that would work, you can, but please post the sprites so we can analyze it. The TTD helicopters, aside from the Tricario, don't look much like the real ones on the list.

[CyberBoy]

Angles changed on wings.

[459]

I made the lesser wing curvature for 5-AT. I also fixed the original DC-3 sprite's "sideview has 4 motors" look.

[459]

Of A300-600ST Beluga's and Super Guppy's usability in this set: In real world those plane are designed to carry cargo with more volume than mass. Hollow objects, namely aircraft fuselage sections. The amount of cargo they can carry measured in mass, however, is very small compared to the aircraft's cargo volume which I think is very bad in TTD environment where because of the nature of transported cargo the only thing that matters is mass that could be carried. Guppy can carry 19 tons of cargo (about the same amount as in real life A319 can carry) and Beluga can carry 47 tons while for instance DC8 Super 60 freighter can carry 49 tons of cargo. Because of this I personally see these aircraft useless for this set as they won't see any passenger use either.

krtaylor, what do you think: should we replace these planes with something else or have you planned to keep them in the set?

[NCarlson]

I don't know what was planned, but I see two possibilities we could either A) make them carry some type of cargo no other plane doeas, or B) completly fake it and say they can in fact carry more weight. If neither of those is acceptable we might as well drop them givn most peopl have at least one plane they'd want in the set that currently can't be included.

[CyberBoy]

But don't remove the Antonov, or my work on it is for nothing

19 tons? You mean you can't even put an elephant in it?

[459]

Your Antonov as a plane is a completely different thing. There's no doubt that it's a major heavy hauler aircraft type and as the biggest cargo airplane in game with it's capacity of 150 tons (will share that position with A380 but there's 25 years between them) there shouldn't be much arguing about Antonov's position.

Yes, that particular Guppy model is that weak. http://www.allaboutguppys.com/guptab3a.htm is the source of information. According to the list the latter Airbus operated Guppys (used for fuselage etc. transportation before Belugas) could carry 25 tons of cargo. Still quite short of those DC-8 figures.

[CyberBoy]

Of course! We make them carry goods! Goods aren't measured in mass (litres of oil, tons of grain), but in volume (crates of goods), and it fits perfectly with what they carried in real life (goods)!

The Antonov IS a heavy hauler?

[RPharazon]

It's a HUGE loader, one of the later models carried the russian space shuttle.
The smaller types also carried refugees from former U.S.S.R countries in turmoil.

[459]

The idea of carrying goods only with those big planes doesn't sound that ridiculous as a concept. However, in practise, to keep their usability against other cargo-carrying airplanes, the goods capacities for them must then be placed so high that their capacities will come maybe too close to the cargo ships (it's also unintentional to make them useless). This is something we'll come across with those A380/An124's anyway as they'll possess 300 goods crate carrying capacity. We must get the cargo so that you can't set any other type apart from goods for SG and Beluga (should be possible?).

We definitely need more opinions about this so that a solution could be tailored. Give your voice! krtaylor, please say something about all this.

[RPharazon]

300 sounds too much, maybe 200 would be okay, because some factories produce 800 crates a month, and if you're using a plane+trains to get those crates, then the plane would take away some of the train's earnings, thus proving to be both the plane and the train's downfall.


On a side note:
I see everyone who's actively contributing to the planeset has something in their sig to advertise it.
Well done.

[459]

300 sounds too much, maybe 200 would be okay, because some factories produce 800 crates a month, and if you're using a plane+trains to get those crates, then the plane would take away some of the train's earnings, thus proving to be both the plane and the train's downfall.

Because of the way TTD calculates cargo amounts for aircraft based on passenger amount (goods: passengers divided by 2, other cargo: passengers divided by 4, independent of mail) A380 will eventually end carrying 300 crates of goods unless someone codes in TTDPatch and OpenTTD some way to set the cargo capacities independently of passenger amounts.

On a side note:
I see everyone who's actively contributing to the planeset has something in their sig to advertise it.
Well done.

Planeset is still incomplete and I want to see these aircraft flying in TTD during my lifetime ever since the first modified vehicle set (I think it was the ships) was released

[Patchman]

300 sounds too much, maybe 200 would be okay, because some factories produce 800 crates a month, and if you're using a plane+trains to get those crates, then the plane would take away some of the train's earnings, thus proving to be both the plane and the train's downfall.

Because of the way TTD calculates cargo amounts for aircraft based on passenger amount (goods: passengers divided by 2, other cargo: passengers divided by 4, independent of mail) A380 will eventually end carrying 300 crates of goods unless someone codes in TTDPatch and OpenTTD some way to set the cargo capacities independently of passenger amounts.

You can do that since alpha 30.

[459]

300 sounds too much, maybe 200 would be okay, because some factories produce 800 crates a month, and if you're using a plane+trains to get those crates, then the plane would take away some of the train's earnings, thus proving to be both the plane and the train's downfall.

Because of the way TTD calculates cargo amounts for aircraft based on passenger amount (goods: passengers divided by 2, other cargo: passengers divided by 4, independent of mail) A380 will eventually end carrying 300 crates of goods unless someone codes in TTDPatch and OpenTTD some way to set the cargo capacities independently of passenger amounts.

You can do that since alpha 30.

-when refitting aircraft, take original mail capacity into account too

OK, a recent addition. Not even a week old This is what the patch page says.

How does this exactly behave? The e-mail announcement says that it only fixes the cargo capacity for airplane refitted for 100% mail to include the pax+mail configuration's mail capacity. Does the patch calculate the cargo capacities based now on both passengers and mail or is it truly independent of those figures? And if it's independent, can you set capacities for each type of cargo separately of is it somehow tied to cargo type. I'd like to have complete explanation of this since I'll be having some speclist work to do because of this.

This sounds very complicate but I just need some sort of explanation of how this works with different cargo types.

[Patchman]

Originally, when refitting the new capacity would be based only on the pax capacity. Now it is based on pax+mail*2 (since 2 pax are equivalent to 1 mail).

However, what I really meant is the new callback system for refitting capacities. With it, you can indepedently set the refitted capacity per cargo type.

[459]

Originally, when refitting the new capacity would be based only on the pax capacity. Now it is based on pax+mail*2 (since 2 pax are equivalent to 1 mail).

However, what I really meant is the new callback system for refitting capacities. With it, you can indepedently set the refitted capacity per cargo type.

The pax/mail system appears to be broken when I tried it with Beta 31. If you refit any aircraft with passengers (for instance refitting a cargo plane with passengers), it will give obscure passenger values (all slightly above 200) for all airplanes, for instance JU52 has 215 pax and DC-3 217. The cargo capacities and mail values with combined passenger/mail configuration are correct, though. Is this to be fixed?

For the planeset, I think we should use following capacity values, presuming the new system will work:

-Combined pax/mail (using the existing chart values for passengers and mail)
-Mail only (based on the new calculation system of TTDPatch)
-Goods (assigned separately for each plane, I'll try to come across some values)
-All other cargo types based on tonnage (based on real-world airplane's ability to transport cargo).

Say something?