Leeds Trolleybus

[Chris]

Leeds has recently approved a new "trolley bus" route to be built, which includes Otley Road and will go directly past the university.

On Tuesday 12th February there will be a drop-in session in the LUU foyer between 11.30 and 1.30, where members of the "NGT" team will show you plans for the route and tell you how it might affect your journey to university.

There'll also be a chance to give your feedback on the project and find out what others think.

For more information, visit the NGT website here: http://www.ngtmetro.com/

Leeds University Union

Looks interesting, guess its a lot cheaper than trams. Bit different too, trams are getting way too mainstream; Leeds has got to stay edgy.

[teccuk]

This is very interesting.

Much cheaper than a tram, no need for utilities relocation (trolleys can go around), users still get a sense of permanence. This also gives the ITA some control over who uses the infrastructure, they may even be able to use a concession system.

[Kevo00]

The only thing that worries me about this proposal is the very long lead time on this project, which is more than enough time for it to be cancelled or kicked into the long grass.

Also, I can see the cyclist lobby taking a swing at the articulated design of the buses - let's hope it isn't very strong in Leeds.

[JamieLei]

Interesting - the permanence effect will naturally spur some form of Transit Oriented Development. However a bus is a bus, and psychologically won't be perceived even to the same extent as a guided bus.

[Chris]

Interesting - the permanence effect will naturally spur some form of Transit Oriented Development. However a bus is a bus, and psychologically won't be perceived even to the same extent as a guided bus.

Hmmm, I dunno I think they're making about 50% segregated from roads and they're building proper stations (with level access), not bus stops for it and it is a fixed set route & frequencies, so I think that there will be more of a permanence effect than you think there will be. They're going to supposedly build it so that it will be easy to convert to a tramway in the future, once funds are made accessible.

And Kev, I wouldn't worry about the cyclist lobby, it isn't particularly strong in Leeds, and along with the trolleybus they will be putting more cycle lanes in, so they should be better off overall.

[teccuk]

It's interesting because cycling is quite big in Bristol and there's been almost no hassle over the bendy buses used for the park and ride. It may have just been a London thing.

[Chris]

Because they're all whiny and can't deal with cycling properly on the road...

[Kevo00]

It's interesting because cycling is quite big in Bristol and there's been almost no hassle over the bendy buses used for the park and ride. It may have just been a London thing.

Certainly a York thing too, bendy buses effectively chased out of town by the cycle lobby. Apart from the Park and Ride buses, but no one notices them because they are grey and not purple.

[teccuk]

So to deduce, either you need a critical mass before people start to complain or people hate Worst Group.

I cycle as well as use the bus etc. I kind of don't like them, but its not a big issue. I just sit behind them.

[Chris]

I've never found bendy buses to be a problem in Leeds (the Leeds-Bradford express bus uses them) when cycling. If I'm going slowly up the hill, they'll overtake me, if I'm going faster, I'll overtake them. They're only a problem if you end up on the inside of them; if you're there its most probably your fault.

It is a bit like people complaining about cyclists being car doored by parked cars - maybe you should leave a car door's width when overtaking parked cars .

[SquireJames]

Must admit, never knew cyclists were such a whiny lot. As mentioned, perhaps it is their driving skills (or lack thereof) to blame rather than vehicle designs I know if I were cycling along on my bicycle and found myself being squished by a bendy bus, I'd have to say that it was probably due to the fact I wasn't looking where I was going to paying attention to other road users. Since it's never actually happened since I actually look where I am going and don't try and get myself into tiny, dangerous blind spots in vehicles, I am not sure where the problem lies with these people

[JamieLei]

Based on how cyclists go in Cambridge, it's a miracle that many of them survive. I never go up the side of a bus when it's obvious something might happen. Yet I've seen cyclists do it when the bus is indicating left. How stupid can they get?

[Chris]

If I'm in normal moving traffic I never go up the inside of any vehicle, I always move out to overtake them if needed. I mean you wouldn't undertake if you were driving a car so why an earth cyclists think it is okay to do so on a bike is beyond me. The truth is most drivers will not ever be looking in their left wing mirror, so of course they haven't seen you sidle up the side...

[Kevo00]

I could rant and on and on about how annoying cyclists are, but I won't bother. Suffice to say, they complain about having no separated lanes provided for them, then in Milton Keynes, where they have an entire road system provided for their use, use the main roads with motor traffic anyway!

Apologies for de-railing (de-wiring?) the topic. It would be nice to see more trolleybus routes in the UK than just the little loop at Sandtoft.

[audigex]

What are the advantages of a trolleybus over a normal bus - presumably local emissions and efficiency? Why are they better than a bus or a tram for the same job?

[JamieLei]

About the same as there is for electrification of railways I would guess - more efficient, slightly smoother ride, a lot less maintenance. In real-estate terms, there's also the very visual reassurance that that transit line will remain in that formation for many years to come, spurring property development, although how much of that is due to the 'rail effect', I'm not sure. (I'm still very interested in the Cambridgeshire Busway's ability to spur development and if it's possible).

[Kevo00]

Apart from the permanence effect, there is no pollution on the route, and trolleybuses are extremely quiet, indeed perhaps quieter than trams. They are also more flexible than trams, as they can manoeuvre around obstacles and still be connected to the OHLE.

It's worth visiting the Trolleybus Museum at Sandtoft to see trolleybuses at work.

Interesting though, that in reading the website carefully a lot of the motivation for pursuing this project would seem to be that Leeds City Council and Metro cannot exercise adequate control over existing bus operators. I suspect we may see bus municipalisation firmly back on the agenda in the next few years as local government re-asserts itself.

[JamieLei]

Very interesting. Although I hope that if that were to happen, the marketing expertise gained from privatisation won't be lost. Public sector agencies are notoriously crap at marketing.

[teccuk]

Very interesting. Although I hope that if that were to happen, the marketing expertise gained from privatisation won't be lost. Public sector agencies are notoriously crap at marketing.

*splutter*

You have to be kidding? Local bus companies are almost unanimously terrible at marketing. The big groups don't really do it, if they do its usually fairly bad. Smaller companies like Brighton & Hove, Thames, & Reading are pretty good. The very small companies are diabolical.

In contrast, Transport for London and most PTE's have some really lovely branding and materials. Network West Mids print is very nice.

This doesn't apply to coach companies who are generally very good, the same goes for train companies, but i don't think they are much better than British Rail were.

Just look at the general look and feel of our LA: www.travelbristol.org or the pseudo PTE: www.travelwest.info

And first's sprawling mess: http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/bristol_bath/ or Abus: www.abus.co.uk

That's just web, i have some lovely print examples.

[JamieLei]

I would say that NXWM currently has a better marketing job than Network West Midlands. It's obvious that there was some design agency hired to do a very good job with nwm, but then they haven't really consistently applied it very well (their website is all over the place for a start).

And while BR might have had a few good ads (Class 37 police train! Jimmy Saville!), it doesn't compare with what the privatised railways have done.

With local bus companies, look at the success of Stagecoach in Cambridge and Brighton and Hove. Both very very good marketing campaigns, with passenger growth to match. The notable outlier award goes to Lothian - which does do very well.

As for TfL, well it has the ridiculous resources that private companies could only dream of.