[New] Rail Franchises

[Dave]

I want to get this back on topic because it's particularly pertinent regarding Virgin's franchise...

With it coming to an end, are they going to get it back?

Abellio/NS
Keolis/SNCF
FirstGroup
Stagecoach (T/A Virgin)

are the four shortlisted... Have they since been re-tendered since the franchise was extended slightly?

First West Coast will make me ill, especially with that horror-livery. Won't suit Pendos at all.

[Geo Ghost]

FirstGroup

I actually felt a shiver going down my spine when I read that. No joke.

Are Virgin not planning on renewing their contract?

[Dave]

Well, they're in the shortlist to do so - but that's not how the franchise system works. Only the DfT can OFFER a franchise extension, which the company in question may accept or decline.

[GurraJG]

So far, I've been rather impressed with Abellio/NS, with what they're doing with Greater Anglia. There's only so much you can do on such a short franchise, but so far I've been impressed.

[Dave]

No - this isn't about merging TOCs... We're talking about the facts, not speculation or "plans" or dreams or any rubbish... (for the record, no I don't... I like commuter and express services being handled by separate companies - and what has Greater Anglia got to do with the West Coast Main Line!?)

Abellio have done well with GA so far, you're right, GurraJG. But although they've run many express services, the West Coast Anglo-Scottish franchise is a different kettle of fish.

I'd be surprised if either of the foreign groups got the nod - First and Virgin have run long-distance services well (alright, First have at least improved on FGW services) in recent times. Keolis and Abellio will need to have a very strong case to win the franchise.

I doubt Virgin will keep it though...

[orudge]

Now Before you start banging on about Off-Topic, Would you think its a good idea if like GA and FGW, the Intercity and Communter (London Midland Express) WCML TOCs came together

I have never been on a London Midland train, but to me, a commuter railway should be operated in a different manner to an intercity railway. I expect a higher quality of service on a long-distance train. Virgin and East Coast both tend to offer that, for instance. ScotRail, on the other hand, operates what are (in my opinion at least) basically commuter trains on some pretty long-distance routes. I would pick the intercity train every time if I'm given a choice.

Of course, it would be possible for a single TOC to operate both long-distance and commuter services, and to use appropriate rolling stock for each, but would it work out that way in practice? First TransPennie Express were given some long-distance Scottish routes that were previously operated by Virgin, and are running relatively inadequate trains along it - I daresay most people who use that service would consider it a downgrade.

[GurraJG]

Abellio have done well with GA so far, you're right, GurraJG. But although they've run many express services, the West Coast Anglo-Scottish franchise is a different kettle of fish.

That is very true.

[Dave]

Now Before you start banging on about Off-Topic, Would you think its a good idea if like GA and FGW, the Intercity and Communter (London Midland Express) WCML TOCs came together

I have never been on a London Midland train, but to me, a commuter railway should be operated in a different manner to an intercity railway. I expect a higher quality of service on a long-distance train. Virgin and East Coast both tend to offer that, for instance. ScotRail, on the other hand, operates what are (in my opinion at least) basically commuter trains on some pretty long-distance routes. I would pick the intercity train every time if I'm given a choice.

Of course, it would be possible for a single TOC to operate both long-distance and commuter services, and to use appropriate rolling stock for each, but would it work out that way in practice? First TransPennie Express were given some long-distance Scottish routes that were previously operated by Virgin, and are running relatively inadequate trains along it - I daresay most people who use that service would consider it a downgrade.

Of course the argument to that is that Greater Anglia and First Great Western are both doing it.

As for Transpennine - well I'd say it improved matters - as part of the Cross Country franchise, Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh was a 2-hourly job. TPEx operate hourly expresses.

I don't agree with the argument that combining commuter and express services works though - and when we're talking about the crack expresses to Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow - probably the four main cities outside of London - I certainly don't.

[orudge]

As for Transpennine - well I'd say it improved matters - as part of the Cross Country franchise, Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh was a 2-hourly job. TPEx operate hourly expresses.

Ah, I didn't realise that - I guess that does improve things then! The one time I was intending to take the train from Edinburgh to Manchester Airport on TPE (in first class too!), my plans changed due to my car giving up on me, and I had to rent a car and ended up just driving down.

Do you agree that the number of TOCs needs to reduce by the way?

Not particularly; and this topic is meant to be about the rail franchises that we do have at the moment, not the rail franchises that we could but don't have, so let's try to keep it more on-topic than the last one. Please just discuss the bids/proposals for the West Coast franchise as it stands.

[Dave]

ICWC-LM-TPE NW

But your disagreement with me on this issue boils down to the fact you don't like the privatised railway.

You have to deal with what you're given - Transpennine's Scotland services were removed from the Cross Country franchise for a reason.

London Midland run commuter and interurban services - this is completely different to running the Intercity franchise which is one of the most coveted on the system.

It's extremely important to maintain this distinction. (removed because of orudge's above post)

The fact is that the West Coast franchise will have over 65 units to operate between the country's five largest population centres. You shouldn't be confusing this by adding London Midland to the mix.

[Nawdic]

I'm surprised that Stagecoach don't want to rebrand it... I'd say a variant of the SWT livery would look good on a Pendo... It already does on a Meridian!

I'm also surprised that Go-Ahead hasn't bidded for the contract...

[Dave]

http://www.fictitiousliveries.co.uk/pho ... 69_WCT.jpg

Mhm.

[Dave]

No, it's better to operate a franchise which runs from express services from London-Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool/North Wales/Glasgow separately to one which operates commuter services.

[Ameecher]

In terms of Greater Anglia the Norwich services are just long distance commuter services which have the benefit of intercity stock. The plan I believe in the future is to have 444 type trains for the line as the loco-hauled stock munches capacity south of Colchester.

As for First being a bit of a mess, they do a very good job with Scotrail but that might be to do with Holyrood have a large say in service provision.

There's certainly an argument in favour of a national livery though.

[Dave]

No, it's better to operate a franchise which runs from express services from London-Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool/North Wales/Glasgow separately to one which operates commuter services.

In my opnion I would disagree with that, the examples of GA and FGW show that merging TOCs on the same line is a good idea.

However If it will work on the WCML is antoher matter...

Exactly - you've answered your own question - First Great Western's local services are much lower in terms of frequency and size than London Midland.

And we all saw that early in FGW's reign as a single franchise it all went to pot.

[GurraJG]

No, it's better to operate a franchise which runs from express services from London-Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool/North Wales/Glasgow separately to one which operates commuter services.

In my opnion I would disagree with that, the examples of GA and FGW show that merging TOCs on the same line is a good idea.

However If it will work on the WCML is antoher matter...

But as pointed out, you can't really compare a franchise which runs London-Norwich to one that runs London-Glasgow. The distances are just too vastly different.

[Dave]

Well that's your opinion, and you can keep it - but there are plenty of reasons not to.

[Geo Ghost]

I still even we should at least try combining TOCs on the same line together

Can we stop there before going further? We know where it'll end up...

http://www.fictitiousliveries.co.uk/pho ... 69_WCT.jpg

Mhm.

Ok, that looks pretty awesome.

[EXTspotter]

FGW back in the years after the original mega-merger were awful. My opinion of them in the last few years has grown markedly. My exposure to the company was via ex-Wessex and FGW long distance services. The Wessex services were always the cinderella of the network, in a similar way that people think of Northern. The staff were very good but the services were infrequent and insufficient. In the last few years the services in the area around where I grew up have improved massively, and I cannot praise FGW enough for this. The long distance services have also improved a lot, with increasing numbers of HSTs and more seating through recent refits improving the lack of capacity. The entire operation is much more reliable and the staff much better trained to deal with customers in difficult situations. An example of this is at Reading station where due to the ongoing station rebuilding I notice far more staff than previously aiding passengers, especially outside of normal working hours - late at night and at weekends.

First isn't the big bad wolf that it once was or at least it is doing well at disguising itself. I am sure that they'll be in with a shout as they are less likely to reapply for FGW as they do not want to be associated with the flack linked to reengineering the GW Main line for electrification. The fact the WCML has been upgraded means this is not going to happen again within the next few years, hence why not aim to take it on as the company's "Flagship" rail operation in the UK....

[JamieLei]

LM is a bit different in that it DOES run intercity services. A service that calls at London Euston - Watford J - Milton Keynes Central - Northampton - Rugby is certainly intercity until that point, especially since it's operated with 350/1 stock with tables and all that jazz, will soon go at 110mph and already runs on the fast WCML lines. Contrast that to the the all stations to Tring and they effectively already have both the intercity and locals under one franchise.

While you could maybe justabout make the case of combining LM and VT, why not just go the whole hog and merge Northern, Merseyrail and Scotrail into it too? The sheer scale of Virgin Trains as well as the huge number of services it operates makes it a big enough franchise by itself without having to trouble it with the diddly services to Stourbridge Town. Seriously, a 139 in VIRGIN TRAINS LIVERY (I do know that Alan wants to merge Snow Hill with Chiltern, which the DfT also oddly wanted to do but Chiltern weren't interested, and are still not interested in anything north of Moor Street but are whipped to run services by Centro).

More on topic, I actually think Virgin will get it. They've actually been very good. They have phenomenal first class loadings, alongside a phenomenal first class product. They've executed the introduction of VHF very well, and a 15-min frequency to Manchester is in the pipeline (but probably won't happen until the new chord is completed). They've been a fantastic example of what the franchising system was meant to achieve, with a glitzy focus on running the trains as a business rather than a public service (to great success), running memorable cinematic adverts, really brushing up the appearance of their regional stations, using yield management to ridiculous yet profitable levels (remember the £1 promotion to Manchester, while the businessmen were paying over £200 in the peak?). And above all, they're just... cool, in a way that First Great Anglia, or East Coast, or Southern aren't. So here's to hoping that they get the franchise back!

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