BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

Post by orudge »

Alan Fry wrote:Not as massive as a Heathrow expansion, also in West London there will be stong support!
I daresay people who live in West London and who work at Heathrow Airport, or at the many companies ultimately relying on the presence of a major international airport there, would rather put up with a few more flights landing there than lose their jobs entirely or have to relocate to somewhere on the other side of London.

EDIT: Ah, there was another page where this point was made already; I guess I don't read this place often enough!
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

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Alan Fry wrote:
Ameecher wrote:But you can't just fill the vaccuum of taking a city out of the area with just s*** loads of housing!
There will be shopping centres as well! Also there are a lot busineses in West london!
Yeah, and a lot of them probably depend on there being a massive airport nearby.
Alan Fry wrote:
GurraJG wrote:I'm pretty sure going from being the local branch manager at a bank to selling juice at an airport is a step down...
They will gain from the fact more people will be living in the area!
What?
Alan Fry wrote:
GurraJG wrote:And how, and where, will you manage to build new homes for 100,000 people?
Also there is a lot of green space nearby!
I don't know if you're aware of how large a town of 100,000 people is, but it's large.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

Post by GurraJG »

Alan Fry wrote:Also no one is losing their jobs, they will have to move however
So you're guaranteeing that not a single one of the 100,000+ people will lose their jobs?
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

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Alan Fry wrote:
Look, the main issue for the Occupy movement is that they are not against "Globalisation", but against the fact it benefits the few.

Also I accept that you can just live in that area forever, thats how humans developed and it has happened many times.

Investors care about making money, not about saving the planet, the only reason London is the biggest air hub is its location and trade links
I don't know about you, but I am not poor yet I can only afford one or two intercontinental flights a year. A flight to the USA costs around £400-500. If hub airport expansion doesn't benefit the few, I don't know what does. In any case, if you propose to close Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton, City, and Southend, then this new airport is unlikely to provide either substantial net new capacity or net new jobs, but simply move them from elsewhere. Rather like when the BBC moved to Salford; only 27 people were employed from the City of Salford area. And what happens when this airport is adjudged to be 'full', as would happen pretty much instantly?

Investors do care about making money, and that is why my point was more nuanced than simply saving the planet. Russian and Chinese investors like the UK because of the stability and continuity of the place. If you rip that up you send out a dangerous signal to these investors. Boris may be a fruit loop, but even he realises this and that is why he wants a new island.

Alan, you make me think that you are basically a Stalinist, in which case you should read some modern history. Neo-Stalinist 'planning for the future' failed in the 1960s because the perceived future failed to arrive. Before you start going on about motorways, pause for a moment and think about the intellectual point that I'm making.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

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At Heathrow there are about 79,000 people employed. At Gatwick, 25,000 people. Luton employs 500 people directly, and 8,000 indirectly. Stansted employs just over 10,000, and I couldn't find the figure for City airport. So that's around 122,000 people who need to be moved to the new airport and need to find work at said airport, not to mention the x number of thousands who need new jobs when their homes and business on Sheppey will be destroyed.

Good luck.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

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Alan Fry wrote:Without a doubt it can be done (in the long term at least)
How?
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

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Alan Fry wrote:
GurraJG wrote:
Alan Fry wrote:Without a doubt it can be done (in the long term at least)
How?
I have just explained it for quite a few pages...
No you haven't.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

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Alan Fry wrote:
GurraJG wrote:No you haven't.
Yes I have!
Not very well. I certainly haven't figured it out. Why don't you tell me again?
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

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Alan Fry wrote:
GurraJG wrote:Not very well. I certainly haven't figured it out. Why don't you tell me again?
What would you like to know?
How are you going to find employment and housing for 120,000-150,000 people?
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

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Alan Fry wrote:As for housing, there is plenty of space in North Ken to build something like 50% of Medway
And what will the people who live on Sheppey do inbetween having been kicked off of the island and the new airport opening?
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

Post by Ameecher »

I think we've pointed this out to you before but we'll try it again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montr%C3%A ... al_Airport

That's the sort of hopeless scheme you're looking at.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

Post by JamieLei »

I've attended a presentation by a pair of very very ambitious investors proposing a Thames Gateway airport (different from the Boris-island). Their BEST CASE SCENARIO would be opening by the late 2020s and that's if we started to shove things through parliament NOW. Of course we all know that isn't going to happen.

Best quick-fix is probably the third runway. Meanwhile the aviation industry will work its way around the problem. I suspect that quite a few non-alliance airways who don't benefit from hub traffic will most probably move over to Gatwick in the coming years. After all, Thameslink will make it much more accessible.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

Post by Hitperson »

also think about the huge pipe that goes from Southampton (i think) to Heathrow, that will take a lot of work to not only move but also avoid contamination to surrounding countryside.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

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Alan Fry wrote: This new airport would be big enough to provide more capacity than close Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton, City, and Southend combined, so new jobs will be created for a start. It won’t be full as soon as it opens, but later on (god know what will happen by then)

Investors want to make money, but they want a decent airport or otherwise they will go to Frankfurt and Paris. Why is a building of a new airport a “dangerous signal” to investors, they would make rather strong returns on this project (in the long term). Did they do so in Honk Kong?

Lastly, for god sake I am not a Stalinist (they were bad as running an economy anyway), we need to have a decent otherwise it will cost jobs and investment. Expanding London current airport (along with “minor” improvements) is like fixing a crash victim with a plaster. What I am suggesting is major surgery!
Ok then, how big would it have to be to replace those six airports? To my knowledge they have seven runways between them. So the new airport would need at least eight runways to add capacity? Plus a whole lot of extra terminals so the planes didn't have to cross each other or taxi miles. Perhaps ten or fifteen.

History obviously doesn't matter as much in Hong Kong as it does in the UK. Building a new airport on this scale would signal to these investors that we no longer value the rich built environment and stability that attracts them in the first place. In any case, London already has a considerable advantage over Frankfurt and Paris in terms of agglomeration effects, simply because so much is here already compared to those centres. In my opinion the UK government reforms to banking from 2018ish, the new immigration quotas, the possibility of attempts to limit executive pay and excessive EU financial regulation are likely to cause far more damage to foreign investment than the lack of a new airport. Not to mention the underlying lack of skills and the entitlement culture.

In any case, I don't get your sudden obsession with investment, because you also tell us that under your 'plan' business would be either a co-operative or state owned, in which case FDI doesn't matter.

Your obsession with building infrastructure by diktat with no thought for people makes you sound Stalinist to me. People forced to take trains, city centres, historic sites and natural habitats destroyed, families broken up and relocated, people forced to move jobs because it will be 'better' for the country, and retroactive legislation passed. Russian and Chinese investors will simply leave because they came to the UK to invest in a stable environment without authoritarianism. If you want to see what a mess central planners make when they are let loose, I suggest you visit somewhere like central Cumbernauld.

Ultimately what you are suggesting is adding a third leg to the crash victim while not carrying out the major surgery at all.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

Post by GurraJG »

Alan Fry wrote:
GurraJG wrote:And what will the people who live on Sheppey do inbetween having been kicked off of the island and the new airport opening?
We will build the first set of homes at either Medway or Ebsfleet before we star work on the airport
That's all very well and nice, but what about jobs? You say they're all going to get jobs at the airport, but there'll be quite a few years between their jobs on Sheppey going away and the new airport with all the new jobs opening.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

Post by Kevo00 »

Alan Fry wrote:
It would need 8-10 runways (that can be used at the same time) and a fair number of mega terminals.

And Im sorry, but a mega airport will is not going to cause a civil war (which is what you seem to be suggesting), also our history is something to be ashamed of, It reminds is how much is nation has fallen behind

Also I have stated that business would be either a co-operative or state owned,but that will take a long time, until then, to grow the economy, we have in invest into the economy and this project will be a massive aid to UK plc

The idea to build a Thames Airport is backed by Lord Foster and some residents (as least!) of West London (if you read yesterday's ES). you don't seem to get that we live in a globalised world, people will follow were the money and jobs are. This will benefit the economy and add jobs at a time of high unemployment. Also in Russia/China/India/Brazil, they already do this and the first 2 are strongly authoritarian anyway. Cumbernauld was done on the cheap with bad planning and poor management.

What I am suggest will be not be those 3 things

Certainly airlines in China, South America and even Virgin Atlantic will be happy they can serve London (or in VA's case more destinations from London and a better chance of beating BA)

Here is what Lord Foster says in the ES:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/comment/c ... 66374.html
I don't know much about aviation, but I would expect that 8-10 runways that can be used at the same time would take up an absolutely humungous amount of space. A large number of terminals would also further suck up capital.

Building this airport would not cause a civil war, but mass movement of the population would not be great for the UK's reputation abroad. I do absolutely get that we live in a globalised world (I teach international business) but we also have to do what we are best at and give the customer what they want. The customer is investors from Russia and China and they come here for a democratic environment with stability and secure property rights. Most of your proposals damage this. Pick up a copy of the FT or The Economist if you don't believe me. In any case, there will be no point investing if everything is going to be nationalised at some future date.

Would the Lord Foster you cite a) happen to be the same Lord Foster that is an architect (and thus has a direct vested interest in building new airport terminals) and b) happen to be the same Lord Foster that had to give up his voting rights in the House of Commons because he pays tax offshore? I think it might. http://www.jordans.co.uk/newsandpressre ... tatus.html

The architects of places like Cumbernauld were just as feted as Lord Foster in the 1960s (people like Basil Spence) and they still failed. History can shine light on failures. But we have to focus on what we can be good at now, not what we stopped being good at c. 1900. Its ludicrous to suggest that we should become authoritarian like Russia or China just because they are successful - we should stick to what we are good at - and I bet you'd be the first to complain if many of your civil rights were taken away for the sake of 'progress'.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

Post by Hitperson »

you know, this may sound like a crazy idea but how about they build another normal sized airport and move some flights to there thus spreading the load and increasing the number of flights into the UK.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

Post by Dave »

Alan Fry wrote:
GurraJG wrote:And what will the people who live on Sheppey do inbetween having been kicked off of the island and the new airport opening?
We will build the first set of homes at either Medway or Ebsfleet before we star work on the airport
What if they don't want to move?

How are you going to convince these people that the "progress" you haven't shut up about is going to help them? Because in the main, it's not.

It won't happen sunshine. No one wants you destroying Birmingham, and no one wants you to destroy the Isle of Sheppey either.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

Post by JamieLei »

Alan Fry wrote:What you don't get is that unless the Tories win a landslide so govern on its own WITHOUT promising to block any airport expansion in the South East (that will take a economic miracle and good end to the euro crisis). There is very little chance of it happening within 20 years (it took that long to build T5)

Also Gatwick is full already, thats until they build another runway (they cannot start work on that until 2019!)
Don't patronise me. I was making the point that these things will take so much time that none of them are quick fixes.
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Re: BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

Post by orudge »

Hitperson wrote:you know, this may sound like a crazy idea but how about they build another normal sized airport and move some flights to there thus spreading the load and increasing the number of flights into the UK.
Airlines prefer the concept of, ideally, a single hub, to capture connecting traffic. Separate airports are fine for origin and destination traffic, but the major world airlines want to be routing people from, say, New York to London to Mumbai. They don't want to be sending their customers from New York to London Heathrow, then having to put them on a bus to Gatwick (which they have to arrange and pay for themselves) and then flying from Gatwick to Mumbai. They'll just route them New York - Amsterdam - Mumbai instead.
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