BMI to be sold to IAG (BA)

[Griff]

EGLL is really pushing up at it's capacity, shame the idiots who decide to move right next to an airport complain when they want to add another runway.

They should built a replacement for Heathrow & Gatwick (maybe the others as well)

Not this again.

I think it should be built in Hampstead. They can use your house as the terminal.

But that means he couldn't ride his model Pendolino around the garden anymore!

[Hitperson]

EGLL is really pushing up at it's capacity, shame the idiots who decide to move right next to an airport complain when they want to add another runway.

They should built a replacement for Heathrow & Gatwick (maybe the others as well)

and waste even more money.

Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted are all excellently placed for access removing and replacing them would be idiotic.

[61653]

For those situated in the west of London, and the Thames Valley area, getting from Heathrow to an office complex there is often quicker and easier than getting into central London to catch the train. Plus, as you say, it is much more convenient for those flying connecting flights to check in at a quiet airport like LBA, and then simply transfer to their flight in LHR, rather than having to get into central London and take the Tube or the Heathrow Express and so on.

Makes sense for those wealthy folk in the Northwest of Leeds or in Harrogate who are connecting into Longhaul flights, sure. But for anyone actually planning to visit Leeds or Bradford, the airport is pretty poor. There can't be many cities in Europe of a comparable size to Leeds that are so poorly-connected to air travel!

[Pilot]

Sheffield springs to mind. It supposedly has an Airport, Doncaster Sheffield. However, that has the grand total of 5 Commercial Flights per day.

[61653]

Sheffield springs to mind. It supposedly has an Airport, Doncaster Sheffield. However, that has the grand total of 5 Commercial Flights per day.

Indeed- Sheffield City Airport closed in 2008 (and was much better-placed for Sheffield, being off the 'Parkway' dual carriageway heading South from the city centre to the M1) but it was never really much of a success. Doncaster-Sheffield Robin Hood Airport, which replaced it, is built on the former RAF Finningley site and on that basis has room for expansion. It's not the best placed for Sheffield but is only 7 miles from Doncaster town centre and next to the Doncaster-Lincoln railway line, though with no station since the former RAF halt closed in 1961. Apparently Doncaster council planned to have a station open by 2011, clearly this hasn't been a success!

Also, Robin Hood is a stupid name for any airport that isn't in Nottingham! Surely 'South Yorkshire Airport' would be more fitting?

[Hitperson]

Sheffield springs to mind. It supposedly has an Airport, Doncaster Sheffield. However, that has the grand total of 5 Commercial Flights per day.

Indeed- Sheffield City Airport closed in 2008 (and was much better-placed for Sheffield, being off the 'Parkway' dual carriageway heading South from the city centre to the M1) but it was never really much of a success. Doncaster-Sheffield Robin Hood Airport, which replaced it, is built on the former RAF Finningley site and on that basis has room for expansion. It's not the best placed for Sheffield but is only 7 miles from Doncaster town centre and next to the Doncaster-Lincoln railway line, though with no station since the former RAF halt closed in 1961. Apparently Doncaster council planned to have a station open by 2011, clearly this hasn't been a success!

Also, Robin Hood is a stupid name for any airport that isn't in Nottingham! Surely 'South Yorkshire Airport' would be more fitting?

"robin hood" gives the impression that when you land men in tights appear and mug you.

[Pilot]

Right, for the record, I am only defending Robin Hood Airport because it is where I am learning to fly from. The reason Robin Hood Airport got the Robin Hood part in it's name, is the fact that it is partially in Nottinghamshire (I think), but also, that it is actually closer the Sherwood Forest, than Nottingham. Also, AFAIK, Sheffield City only had a 3,500ft Runway, which is too short, even for Flybe. Robin Hood has nearly 10,000ft. You can tell when you go to the Airport that they were expecting it to be busier than it is. The Main Road leading to it is Dual Carriageway (though rather empty), and the Car Park is only ever about Half Full. The Railway line is about a Half Mile away, crosses one of the Roads towards the Airport (which is where I imagine the Station would go). However, the saying that is 'If you build it, they will come' has unfortunately failed with this Airport. The North of England though, is a hard place to build a Profitable Airport, mainly because of 3 Airports; Manchester, Leeds Bradford and Newcastle.

I also, however, think the name 'South Yorkshire Airport' would suit it well, and possibly attract more Passengers. I also believe the name has been moored several times.

[61653]

"robin hood" gives the impression that when you land men in tights appear and mug you.

Given that it's in Doncaster, you probably WILL get mugged... but the tights will be on their heads rather than their legs!

[Hitperson]

"robin hood" gives the impression that when you land men in tights appear and mug you.

Given that it's in Doncaster, you probably WILL get mugged... but the tights will be on their heads rather than their legs!

well at least they are still "in" tights...

[Pilot]

"robin hood" gives the impression that when you land men in tights appear and mug you.

Given that it's in Doncaster, you probably WILL get mugged... but the tights will be on their heads rather than their legs!

Reminds me of the Top Gear Bank Robbery in Albania.

[Hitperson]

"robin hood" gives the impression that when you land men in tights appear and mug you.

Given that it's in Doncaster, you probably WILL get mugged... but the tights will be on their heads rather than their legs!

Reminds me of the Top Gear Bank Robbery in Albania.

"How do women wear tights??"

[61653]

"robin hood" gives the impression that when you land men in tights appear and mug you.

Given that it's in Doncaster, you probably WILL get mugged... but the tights will be on their heads rather than their legs!

Reminds me of the Top Gear Bank Robbery in Albania.

Reminds me of this:

"Why do women wear tights? Have you seen what it does to a bank-raider's face?"

-Jasper Carrott.

[EXTspotter]

For those situated in the west of London, and the Thames Valley area, getting from Heathrow to an office complex there is often quicker and easier than getting into central London to catch the train. Plus, as you say, it is much more convenient for those flying connecting flights to check in at a quiet airport like LBA, and then simply transfer to their flight in LHR, rather than having to get into central London and take the Tube or the Heathrow Express and so on.

Makes sense for those wealthy folk in the Northwest of Leeds or in Harrogate who are connecting into Longhaul flights, sure. But for anyone actually planning to visit Leeds or Bradford, the airport is pretty poor. There can't be many cities in Europe of a comparable size to Leeds that are so poorly-connected to air travel!

It does aid people who are connecting in Heathrow, however the amount of people who benefit from this is going to be low. Further penetration into any connecting traffic from Leeds is likely to drive down yields as it would lead to competition with KLM which offers a very good service to Amsterdam (3 flights per day) and onward connections worldwide. Unless BA offers a similar frequency level they stand little to no chance in winning customers away from KLM. The fact the flight is simply slot sitting leads me to believe the route stands little hope of sticking around after the rejigging of BA's Longhaul portfolio, the same is true to Rotterdam, however this is more likely to stick around longer than LBA due to a lack of competition. BA has often used new domestic routes as slotsitters many times before, even the Gatwick operation had flights to Newquay for about a year 3 or 4 yers ago to retain slots at Gatwick...


...More specifically the LGW - NQY flights, whilst running with reasonable loads during June/July/August (80%+ load factor), the rest of the year the loads were on average about 30 people (in a 737 this is ridiculously low - about 20-25%), my friend was a dispatcher in Newquay at the time and said that even though the BA flight was doing horrifically compared to the Flybe and Air Southwest flights on the same route, BA stuck around for over a year and must have been losing money on it hand over fist. In the end it took until a rejigging of BA's Gatwick scheduals before the route was dropped.

[61653]

Right, for the record, I am only defending Robin Hood Airport because it is where I am learning to fly from. The reason Robin Hood Airport got the Robin Hood part in it's name, is the fact that it is partially in Nottinghamshire (I think), but also, that it is actually closer the Sherwood Forest, than Nottingham. Also, AFAIK, Sheffield City only had a 3,500ft Runway, which is too short, even for Flybe. Robin Hood has nearly 10,000ft. You can tell when you go to the Airport that they were expecting it to be busier than it is. The Main Road leading to it is Dual Carriageway (though rather empty), and the Car Park is only ever about Half Full. The Railway line is about a Half Mile away, crosses one of the Roads towards the Airport (which is where I imagine the Station would go). However, the saying that is 'If you build it, they will come' has unfortunately failed with this Airport. The North of England though, is a hard place to build a Profitable Airport, mainly because of 3 Airports; Manchester, Leeds Bradford and Newcastle.

I also, however, think the name 'South Yorkshire Airport' would suit it well, and possibly attract more Passengers. I also believe the name has been moored several times.

The point about Sherwood Forest is a good one- the forest once covered a huge section of the North of England East of the Pennines. In fact, a local legend round here states that Robin Hood's final resting place (as chosen by the firing of an arrow in the forest) is in what is now the grounds of the 'Three Nuns' public house at Cooper Bridge near Mirfield, West Yorkshire!

Nevertheless, if you asked anyone in any English-speaking country which City was served by Robin Hood Airport, they'd probably say Nottingham. I was just reading up about the original Sheffield City Airport, and the reason for the short runway was down to the lack of any large flat areas of land near the city. On that basis it was decided to base the design on that of London City Airport and to cater mainly for business travel, unfortunately this was just prior to the growth of budget airlines that would have boosted passenger numbers had they been able to serve the airport- but the only suitable aircraft that could land there wouldn't have had the capacity that was required for that kind of operation.

According to Wikipedia, RAF Finningley (now Robin Hood airport) was also an official emergency landing site for the Space Shuttle due to the long runway!

[Pilot]

London City has around 5,000ft though, which is a fair sized Runway, capable of landing Jets up to about A319 size, and most Turboprops. The Props that Flybe (who are the biggest regional carrier in Europe) use require around a 4,500ft runway to Take-off, which whilst a short Take-Off run, is still too long for Sheffield City. I know you could of fit the Dash 8-200 into Sheffield, mainly because it needs a much shorter Runway due to being smaller and having a lower MTOW, hence the reason why Air Southwest used them in Plymouth (3,806ft). However, with Airports nowadays, if you can't take a 737, you haven't got much hope in surviving (hence Doncaster Sheffield came about).

And yeah, I knew that Finningley/Doncaster could be used as a Space Shuttle Emergency site, but of necessary, a lot of Airports within Britain could take one. AFAIK though, they have to be a non-commercial Airport/Airfield.

[EXTspotter]

London City is much more restricted than that. Getting the operating certificate for an aircraft type is quite an involved and lengthy process, especially if the flight characteristics of the aircraft are getting close to the airport's limits.

From London City Airport Consultative Company's website:

Aircraft currently approved for scheduled services

Here are brief details of the principal types of aircraft currently approved for use at the the Airport to provide scheduled services. (Note: The Maximum Take off and Landing Weights of aircraft are not always available at London City Airport).

Airbus A318
BAe 146/Avro RJ family
BAe 4100 Jetstream
ATR 42
ATR 72
DHC Dash 7
Bombardier Q Series/DHC Dash 8
Dornier Fairchild 328
Dornier Fairchild Do328 Jet
Embraer 135
Embraer E170
Embraer E190
Fokker 50
Fokker 70
Saab 340
Saab 2000

The airport REALLY cannot take anything the size of an A319. The A318's certification was very very rigourous as it was pushing the envelope as it were. Firstly Airbus had to make modifications to the aircraft and its software to be able to follow the noise abatement rules, which include a very steep descent profile (5.5 degrees rather than the normal 2 or 3). This is very difficult as it means that without the modifications the landing would likely be very fast, causing the landing rollout to be very long, something which simply isn't possible due to the short runway at LCY.

The A318 is also very difficult in terms of parking space as whilst they are parked on the apron, they enter into the saftey zone of the runway. This is an area in space which is like a parallelogram shaped prism, with the sides sloping upwards and outwards at about 10 degrees from the edges of the runway, which acts as a buffer for aircraft so that they do not collide with objects on the ground. This area is meant to be completely clear as a safety measure, however LCY airport authority had to gain special dispensation for the A318. If you tried to park and A319 in LCY, it would be encroaching too far into the safety zone to be overlooked in terms of safety. Also it would block the taxiways to access the aircraft stands.

Finally, again due to noise abatement rules, the A318 has to do a partially derated (less than maximum power) take off to keep within the very strict noise perimeter rules. Due to the very low weights of the BA A318s due to their very low density business class only layout (33 or 34 or so) it is possible to depart LCY in this way, an A319 would simply not be able to perform in this way, even a normal first and standard layout, the A318 would struggle.

[Chris]

Try and find somewhere in Britain that doesn't have NIMBYs.

And Heathrow is an excellent airport, in what way is it not fit for purpose?

[Hitperson]

According to Wikipedia, RAF Finningley (now Robin Hood airport) was also an official emergency landing site for the Space Shuttle due to the long runway!

fairford is (or was i guess now) a stand in as well.

Not this again.

I think it should be built in Hampstead. They can use your house as the terminal.

If they do, more people would complain about the noise and those people are donors/backers to this government

and waste even more money.

Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted are all excellently placed for access removing and replacing them would be idiotic.

Heathrow is not fit for purpose and is in the wrong location, Gatwick and Stansted are better (but not good enough, that can be sorted however), but all three have NIMBEY's that stop development of those airports

once again, if you are going to spout s*** back it up.

why is it in the wrong place and why is it not fit for purpose.

[orudge]

The fact the flight is simply slot sitting leads me to believe the route stands little hope of sticking around after the rejigging of BA's Longhaul portfolio, the same is true to Rotterdam, however this is more likely to stick around longer than LBA due to a lack of competition. BA has often used new domestic routes as slotsitters many times before, even the Gatwick operation had flights to Newquay for about a year 3 or 4 yers ago to retain slots at Gatwick...

From BA's point of view, it may actually be the case that LBA is subsidising the route to encourage BA to provide a decent service. We shall have to wait and see what the timetable looks like - I daresay if BA can take some traffic away from KLM, hold onto their LHR slots, and maybe bring in a bit of income, then they'll be happy for the time being.

Heathrow is not fit for purpose and is in the wrong location, Gatwick and Stansted are better (but not good enough, that can be sorted however), but all three have NIMBEY's that stop development of those airports

Heathrow is the only airport (aside from City) that is actually in Greater London. Aside from the fact it desperately needs a third runway, what's wrong with it?

[GurraJG]

Heathrow is the only airport (aside from City) that is actually in Greater London. Aside from the fact it desperately needs a third runway, what's wrong with it?

Long immigration queues.