1st stage of Croxley rail link begins

[Dave]

(Remember, with HS2 + local rail links, most of the West Midlands will be no more than 90 mins away)

I don't see how this makes the Midlands a more attractive proposition - the majority of commuters to the west of Birmingham where I live commute into Birmingham - it's not as if Birmingham isn't a big city, there are some huge employers here... KPMG springs out as a big "commuter" example, although there are plenty of others.

[GurraJG]

Maybe Clacton needs it's own HS.

[Kevo00]

Maybe Clacton needs it's own HS.

Whack in a few substations and its a ready made 4tph Pendo route?

[GurraJG]

Maybe Clacton needs it's own HS.

Whack in a few substations and its a ready made 4tph Pendo route?

Only 4tph?

[James Coote]

The problem is round that part of the world, you're outside of London proper, and really you need a car to get around anyway. Most business people do not want to spend an hour getting into central London on the slow train when they can drive or get a lift from the husband/wife to Watford Junction and be in Euston in 20 minutes. I live in Beckton (zone 3) at the moment and it takes me longer to get into central London than from Watford Junction

If this diversion gets people to Watford Junction, from where they can take the London Midlands train to Euston, fine. I'm not convinced that having two new stations is going to really add any value (I lived in Watford 12 years and have used Watford Highstreet once).

However, this is probably TFL thinking they can make some money selling prime real estate where Watford Met is currently located (it really is a nice area around there. Right next to a very good school and just near the park)

[Dave]

I don't see how this makes the Midlands a more attractive proposition - the majority of commuters to the west of Birmingham where I live commute into Birmingham - it's not as if Birmingham isn't a big city, there are some huge employers here... KPMG springs out as a big "commuter" example, although there are plenty of others.

I know Birmingham is the second biggest in the UK/England, but when HS2 opens the London to Birmingham route will be as fast as the London to Brighton route. That will make it a more attractive proposition

More attractive, maybe - but the actual number of people that will actually make decisions to live on Birmingham on this attractiveness will be nowhere near the population figures you predict when you tell me that your plan is to put more people on the railway than on the roads.

[GurraJG]

That's not the point he's making.

[Dave]

More attractive, maybe - but the actual number of people that will actually make decisions to live on Birmingham on this attractiveness will be nowhere near the population figures you predict when you tell me that your plan is to put more people on the railway than on the roads.

I am sure more people travel by rail then road when communting from Birmingham to London

So why are you so intent on improving services from Birmingham to London?

[JamieLei]

The problem is round that part of the world, you're outside of London proper, and really you need a car to get around anyway. Most business people do not want to spend an hour getting into central London on the slow train when they can drive or get a lift from the husband/wife to Watford Junction and be in Euston in 20 minutes. I live in Beckton (zone 3) at the moment and it takes me longer to get into central London than from Watford Junction

If this diversion gets people to Watford Junction, from where they can take the London Midlands train to Euston, fine. I'm not convinced that having two new stations is going to really add any value (I lived in Watford 12 years and have used Watford Highstreet once).

However, this is probably TFL thinking they can make some money selling prime real estate where Watford Met is currently located (it really is a nice area around there. Right next to a very good school and just near the park)

Hurrah! Someone is actually on topic!

I suppose one of the main advantages is allowing connections to VT. Also one would be surprised with how much people value a direct ride in a seat - the Met would bring the City within a single butt-in-seat ride to Watford. Even though it'll take longer, I bet lots of people will be willing to get on and fall asleep.

[James Coote]

Hurrah! Someone is actually on topic!

That's only because I didn't realise there was 11 pages in this thread when I posted

I don't think virgin trains stop very often in Watford Junction (if at all). It's kinda pointless as it just slows the trains down having an extra stop and the London Midlands trains are fast enough to make Watford easily commutable anyway.

I suspect that the reason Watford Met gets few enough passengers to justify shutting it down is that people living in the housing estate the other side of nearby Cassiobury Park don't like to walk through the park late at night (esp. in the winter) and all have cars anyway (it's quite a nice area). Having said that, some years ago, a whole bunch of flats were built right round the corner from Watford met, so those people will probably see their house prices drop if it's no longer so easy for them to commute. Furthermore, the school next door (Watford Boys Grammar) takes kids from as far away as Pinner only because they can all get on that metline train

[orudge]

Apologies for the delays with your posts appearing, James - by using words such as "real estate" and "virgin" in your first 5 posts, you triggered our spam holding filter!

[Dave]

Apologies for the delays with your posts appearing, James - by using words such as "real estate" and "virgin" in your first 5 posts, you triggered our spam holding filter!

Nothing like an effective filter is there haha.

[JamieLei]

Hurrah! Someone is actually on topic!

That's only because I didn't realise there was 11 pages in this thread when I posted

I don't think virgin trains stop very often in Watford Junction (if at all). It's kinda pointless as it just slows the trains down having an extra stop and the London Midlands trains are fast enough to make Watford easily commutable anyway.

I suspect that the reason Watford Met gets few enough passengers to justify shutting it down is that people living in the housing estate the other side of nearby Cassiobury Park don't like to walk through the park late at night (esp. in the winter) and all have cars anyway (it's quite a nice area). Having said that, some years ago, a whole bunch of flats were built right round the corner from Watford met, so those people will probably see their house prices drop if it's no longer so easy for them to commute. Furthermore, the school next door (Watford Boys Grammar) takes kids from as far away as Pinner only because they can all get on that metline train

Oddly enough, that's pretty much what I'd love to carry on researching - the link between public transport and urban development and investment. Rail stations act as fantastic magnets for private investment because they're semi-permanent - if millions of pounds is pumped into opening a station, it isn't going to close within the next two decades. There will almost certainly be fierce resistance to this closure, not just from the housing owners but also from any kind of land investor in the vicinity.

[Ameecher]

Apologies for the delays with your posts appearing, James - by using words such as "real estate" and "virgin" in your first 5 posts, you triggered our spam holding filter!

This made me laugh quite considerably.

[Dave]

There shouldn't be though because they're Pick Up / Set Down only. So there's no point.

[JamieLei]

At least it makes NW London far more accessible to the WCML when the Met is connected there.

[James Coote]

Apologies for the delays with your posts appearing, James - by using words such as "real estate" and "virgin" in your first 5 posts, you triggered our spam holding filter!

I wondered why earlier posts went through but the ones in this thread didn't

Oddly enough, that's pretty much what I'd love to carry on researching - the link between public transport and urban development and investment. Rail stations act as fantastic magnets for private investment because they're semi-permanent - if millions of pounds is pumped into opening a station, it isn't going to close within the next two decades. There will almost certainly be fierce resistance to this closure, not just from the housing owners but also from any kind of land investor in the vicinity.

Actually, in this particular case, I'm not sure the ferocity will be as vociferous as in some places. Not to say there won't be some people scratching their heads thinking how they will get to work in the future if this all goes ahead.

The proposed new line runs round the side of a hill, with a narrow river valley to the south, where there would probably be a flood risk if new housing developments were built (there are currently 3 separate retail parks there instead). The housing up the (north) side of the hill is terraced but not so bad that you could justify ripping it down to build shiny new flats

Watford Junction is an interesting case to consider. About a kilometer from the town centre, the road between the station and town centre had a whole load of "development" along it, in the form of a series of modern multi-storey office blocks, as well as a new hotel at the town end. Even before the recession, there was probably a glut of office space, and now there are numerous new office buildings along that road that are half or mostly empty

As for the new stations...

Would Ascot Road tube station will be close enough to replace Watford Tube Station?

It wouldn't really replace it, no. At a guess, maybe 1/4 of the people who walk to Watford Met at the moment and live between it and Ascot Road would walk to Ascot Road instead. However, it will serve a new group of people who previously probably didn't consider taking the train to work as it was a bit far to get to the station.

[Ameecher]

But that adds operational complexity that really isn't required. Yes some people will lose out but far more will benefit from this scheme, if you half the frequency on the rebuilt line then its benefits are going to be significantly reduced, it's not like frequencies at that end are all that common by LU standards anyway. I also doubt if you'd have enough trains to operate both branches without short changing somebody elsewhere.
Finally, I suspect that some of the funding for this scheme will come from selling off the land used by the current station, some prime real estate there in leafy Watford.

[yorkie]

It wouldn't really replace it, no. At a guess, maybe 1/4 of the people who walk to Watford Met at the moment and live between it and Ascot Road would walk to Ascot Road instead. However, it will serve a new group of people who previously probably didn't consider taking the train to work as it was a bit far to get to the station.

I have an idea, Why don't we keep both Watford Station open, while still opening a link to Watford Junction?

My plan is that services between Met Line Baker Street and Amersham/Chesham will hand over to Chiltern, that would release 4tph slots which would be used to mantain 4tph on services between Baker Street to Watford and Watford Junction?

Do you think it will work?

Out of interest, have you visited the Croxley Rail Link site? They have already stated that it could not be kept open...

The closure of the station has always been part of the Croxley Rail Link proposals. Keeping Watford Met open in any capacity, including running a split or shuttle service, would have a negative effect on the scheme overall resulting in poorer service for all users reducing the economic benefits of the rail link

For more information, read the 'Alternatives' document:

http://www.croxleyraillink.com/media/30 ... report.pdf

The impression I get is that you do not do much in the way of research before you post (this is just one example out of many). If you want people to take your proposals seriously, then perhaps you could re-consider this policy for future posts?

[Chris]

I have an idea, Why don't we keep both Watford Station open, while still opening a link to Watford Junction?

My plan is that services between Met Line Baker Street and Amersham/Chesham will hand over to Chiltern, that would release 4tph slots which would be used to mantain 4tph on services between Baker Street to Watford and Watford Junction?

Do you think it will work?

No because chiltern do not have the capacity at marylebone to operate more services to amersham or chesham. Baker street doesn't have the capacity either.