National Rail Shakeup

[Dave]

I am confused. If the shopping area bit on the site which used to be occupied by the bullring has a bronze bull statue in it, it is not the bullring? Please explain because I am really confused now....

It is - but the big silver spaceship building? That's NOT the Bullring - well, Selfridges has entrances in the Bullring but that's it.

That design is meant to be a curvaceous lady in a shimmering dress. True story.

The actual Bullring was the other side of St Martin's.

[Ameecher]

It is the bullring. The old one (which was s***) was knocked down and rebuilt.

All three of those buildings are stunning examples of new architecture.

They're great examples of how you can create identity and distinctiveness without necessarily being placeless, international and boring. The Gherkin is just as much part of London's skyline as St Paul's Cathedral, and yet one is old and the other one new. I'm a geographer rather than an architect but I believe that A LOT of disenfranchisement with modern architecture is that it's often too bland and international. In the olden days, each office building would be drawn up with the location and surroundings in mind, but today too often you just plonk your identikit glass-and-steel box there. Round the back of Birmingham Snow Hill station has pretty much gone that way unfortunately...

Sorry I thought I was reading an excerpt from Goss (2003) then. Horrible shudder ran down my spine.

[JamieLei]

Haha you wouldn't want to read any of my proper essays or research reports where I actually think about what I type!

[JGR]

As much as I agree that much of central Birmingham is a bit drab, I'm not really keen on over-the-top modern architecture either.
Maybe I'm boring, but I see nothing wrong at all with right angles.

Also, as much as people might want to demolish New Street and rebuild it, I suspect it would fairly cripple commuting in the meantime.
Not to mention that the owners of the buildings on top will be less than pleased.

[JamieLei]

Hence why it's currently being redone 1 platform at a time which is about the most they can get away with while keeping the trains running

[GurraJG]

If you're going to link to an article to back up your claims of hundreds of billions of pounds of tax evasion, it might help to actually link to an article that back up your claims...

[61653]

How about using it to reduce the tax rate altogether (without having to cut other things), so that ordinary people have more money in their pockets to spend in the economy?

In that case can we raise fares and road charging rates?

I just nearly died of laughter!

[Dave]

Are they any closed rail lines in the West Midlands area in the first place?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.railaroundbirmingham.co.uk/

Start there. Keep reading. Come back to me when you've done. It should take you about 6 months.

Also I have been reading about Snow Hill, it used to have 8 platforms, now it has just 3, so if there is any need for extra station capacity in Birmingham City Centre, add it at Snow Hill

Well for a start, you're wrong - Snow Hill has four heavy rail platforms, but one has been converted for the approach line to the Metro terminal, which will change when the extension is finished.

But really, if you want 8 platforms at Snow Hill, please take a look at the railway as was and as is now. Please don't say "we could spend a few billion that isn't available" on it, because the surrounding area has been heavily developed.

(Just so you know - Snow Hill when it had 8 platforms WAS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BUILDING)

[Chris]

With regards to tax evasion and avoidance, it is childish to think that you could ever collect all the tax owed, and the point of the guardian article was that if more of it was collected then the budgets wouldn't have to be cut so severely, not to frivil it away on some anorak's sexual fantasies.

[JamieLei]

Can you just give me a list of rail lines that are shut in the West Midlands area?

If you actually bothered to click on the link, you'd find it quite obvious.

Bloody extreme socialists, wanting everything handed to them on a plate...

[Ameecher]

And your point is?

[JamieLei]

I was simply asking for a list, anyway here is my list of closed West Midlands lines

Alcester to Hatton Branch Line (linked to Birmingham Snow Hill)

Birmingham Snow Hill to Wolverhampton Low Level Line (linked to Birmingham Snow Hill) (Currently Tram Line)

Bumble Hole Line (to Birmingham New Street)

Camp Hill Line (Not closed, but not used by passenger services) (to Birmingham New Street)

Halesowen Railway (Linking Birmingham Snow Hill to Lichfield and WCML via New Street)

Harborne Railway (to Birmingham New Street)

Sutton Park Line (to Birmingham New Street)

South Staffordshire Line (linked to Birmingham Snow Hill)

Walsall to Wolverhampton Line (Not closed, but not used by passenger services) (Linked to Birmingham New Street)

Wolverhampton and Walsall Railway (Linked to Birmingham New Street)

Wombourne Branch Line (Linked to Birmingham New Street)

Yes well done. You did it yourself.

And your point is?

I just wanted a list to see what should happen to the stations in terms of rebuilding

No you haven't, you've just typed a list of closed lines in the West Midlands that we could have seen anyway by clicking on Dave's link. You haven't suggested anything at all!

[Kevo00]

Bumble Hole and Camp Hill are mildly amusing line names. They should be first in line to be reopened under Project Fry.

[Dave]

I spend 24 hours off here and I appear to have blown up a storm.

I know it was shut in the 60s and rebuilt and reopened in the 80s, but this area has got no historic buildings and it would not need too much demolishing

ARE YOU REAL!? WOULD NOT NEED TOO MUCH DEMOLISHING!? HAVE YOU SEEN THE BUILDINGS AROUND SNOW HILL!?

Utter tripe!

And this lot is ridiculous:

Bumble Hole Line (to Birmingham New Street)

WRONG. The Bumble Hole Line ran between Old Hill and Dudley, both of which are connected to Birmingham Snow Hill (Dudley is connected at Great Bridge and Swan Village to the Wolves-Snow Hill line). Old Hill, being a GWR station (eventually) would mainly have used Snow Hill despite the connection at Smethwick West.

Camp Hill Line (Not closed, but not used by passenger services) (to Birmingham New Street)

WRONG. The Camp Hill Line is used by XC services heading north from the south and vice versa.

Halesowen Railway (Linking Birmingham Snow Hill to Lichfield and WCML via New Street)

WRONG. The Halesowen Railway also began at Old Hill - which for a small station actually was a double junction - and ran through Halesowen and Rubery to Longbridge - Birmingham Snow Hill certainly did NOT rely on the Halesowen Line to link to Lichfield or even the WCML. Please do more research.

South Staffordshire Line (linked to Birmingham Snow Hill)

What amuses me so much is that you correctly say that the South Staffs Line is connected to Snow Hill, but then claim that the Bumble Hole Line, which meets the South Staffs at Blowers Green, goes to New Street.

Wombourne Branch Line (Linked to Birmingham New Street)

WRONG. The Wombourne branch started at Brettell Lane (seconds away from my parents' home) - which joined Stourbridge at a junction FACING Kidderminster and Worcester. It ended at Dunstall Park and ran into Wolves Low Level, which ran via West Brom to Snow Hill.

I wish I had done the research for you now.. It would have been right then.

[Chris]

Oh Dave, you're great .

[oleinves]

birmingham is the current focus here, but i believe there are plenty more around northeast and west

I was simply asking for a list, anyway here is my list of closed West Midlands lines
.
.
.
Camp Hill Line (Not closed, but not used by passenger services) (to Birmingham New Street)

i think u just contradicted yourself with a list of closed lines having one which is not closed

Dave W just correctly pointed out it's not closed at all, still in full operation
look at google maps, spot the turbostar, that is on the down camp hill line. wikipedia even tells you it's also used by local services. ecs trains to/from Tyseley TMD heading for new street will also use part of this line, but instead goes onto the birmingham-stratford line

[Dave]

I don't think you understand the cost of demolishing buildings like those around Snow Hill station - it would run into hundreds of millions of pounds... Just to expand a station that doesn't need it?

As for "these lines SHOULD be open"... Wombourne, Halesowen and Bumble Hole Lines are long gone.

[Ameecher]

I agree it will cost quite a lot, but those lines need to reopen (or if they are long gone rebuilt)

Why?

[Kevo00]

I agree it will cost quite a lot, but those lines need to reopen (or if they are long gone rebuilt)

Why?

To improve transport links in the West Midlands

Alright, but who needs to get there from here and so on? I'm not actually against opening new lines, but only when the demand is there. And why should they follow alignments dictated by Victorian land use patterns? I don't know the area terribly well but I bet most of the use of these lines was actually industrial (e.g. freight based) and that they never carried many passengers anyway.

[Dave]

To improve transport links in the West Midlands

Alright, but who needs to get there from here and so on? I'm not actually against opening new lines, but only when the demand is there. And why should they follow alignments dictated by Victorian land use patterns? I don't know the area terribly well but I bet most of the use of these lines was actually industrial (e.g. freight based) and that they never carried many passengers anyway.

Bumble Hole patronage by time of closure in 1964 was in the triple digits a week... The Halesowen railway was primarily a freight line but mainly carried passengers to the Rover Plant at Longbridge (one problem with that...)

The time it would take from Halesowen to New Street via Longbridge would be in excess of the 35 minutes it takes to Colmore Row on the number 9 bus.

The Wombourne Line? Half the stations never even got used - the GWR built the railway exclusively as a freight line but opened stations for a grand total of 7 years in 1925. The route probably sees more people walk along it every Saturday than it did in the entire time it was open.

I don't know where you're from Alan Fry but your knowledge of the West Midlands area is incredibly poor.

On a different note... The South Staffs Line is a different beast - they wanted to put the Metro along that but the latest plan is to connect Brierley Hill back to the main system at Stour using a three-train "light rail" proposal - calling at a new station near Corbetts' Hospital (well worth it), Brierley Hill station on Station Road (nowhere near anything, will last weeks) and the Waterfront, which would give the place a slightly better chance of selling thousands of square feet of office space that are currently lying empty.

Parry, who designed and run the 139 on the Stour Town line, are behind it.