Pendolino - ECML

[Pilot]

One thing I will say about re-opening Rail lines, The Manchester - Altrincham and Manchester - Bury lines that were converted to Light Rail (Manchester Metrolink) was a Disaster. Yes, it has improved ridership, because the stock is newer, however, the Capacity of the Trains is much lower, meaning the Trams are Over-crowded. They are also re-opening the Chorlton line which was a Rail Line. They should be converted back to Normal Rail lines.

[Kevo00]

His plan made the decline of the railways even worse, we need to reopen lines in areas not currently served by the railways. We need to think of the railways less as a business and more a public service

Er, wot? Passenger numbers are now the highest ever, and infact were pretty flat throughout the BR period...I think holding 600m passengers on a network of 10,000 miles (c. 1970) is preferable to 700m on one of 14,000 (c. 1960).

Even if the railways were considered solely a public service they would still require managing to provide the best value for society. Why should we subsidise trains that run with less than 10% of their capacity used and where the carbon footprint per passenger is actually higher than driving? There's a reason that railways started in the coal industry...they are intended for bulk transport, not universal transport. I'm all for alternatives to the car, but rail isn't always the best, simply because it requires a big passenger flow to be going in one direction.

[GurraJG]

There's a compromise that needs to be taken between providing a public service and providing the best value for money. There are many places where it is simply too expensive to run a railway network, but where other forms of public transportation, like buses, are a better and cheaper alternative. That being said, of course the bus network in this country needs a massive improvement, but the solution isn't to replace them with trains.

[Griff]

[Geo Ghost]

Top speed all the way I see...

(Yes, I know it's just testing before anyone even attempts to flame me.)

[GurraJG]

I know that there are many parts of the rail network that aren't profitable, and I'm not suggesting we close down every single non-profitable section of the railway. However, there is still a decision that needs to be made about how loss-making a railway line can be a still be acceptable. Opening up closed railways in the most rural parts of Britain will probably end up in services that are even less profitable than existing lines, and whilst some may be justifiable, it is not a very good use of public money subsidising sections of the railway that are rarely used and which are absolutely haemorrhaging money.

[Ameecher]

One thing I will say about re-opening Rail lines, The Manchester - Altrincham and Manchester - Bury lines that were converted to Light Rail (Manchester Metrolink) was a Disaster. Yes, it has improved ridership, because the stock is newer, however, the Capacity of the Trains is much lower, meaning the Trams are Over-crowded. They are also re-opening the Chorlton line which was a Rail Line. They should be converted back to Normal Rail lines.

So which Manchester station would you route them to? The advantage of metrolink is that it allows more long distance trains to use the congested routes into Piccadilly and Victoria.

[lawton27]

We could enlarge one of the stations for that job

That sounds easy with all that empty space in central Manchester......

[Ameecher]

Confirmed troll.

[61653]

Of course, back in BR days, services like Huddersfield-Sheffield were subsidised at least partially by the profits made on the Trans-Pennine expresses (though both services ran at a lower frequency than the 1tph/4tph respectively that runs today= though in the case of TPEx was 2x 7-8coach loco hauled services per hour, rather than 4x 2/3-car 170/185s). The fact that at least in this part of the world, the express trains are run by a separate franchise holder from the stoppers means more direct subsidy is required for the latter (and that's before you consider the whole problem of private companies being motivated by profit)- even in BR days many services were subsidised, but on a 'break-even' basis rather than funding Messrs. Lockhead/Souter et al.

[Pilot]

One thing I will say about re-opening Rail lines, The Manchester - Altrincham and Manchester - Bury lines that were converted to Light Rail (Manchester Metrolink) was a Disaster. Yes, it has improved ridership, because the stock is newer, however, the Capacity of the Trains is much lower, meaning the Trams are Over-crowded. They are also re-opening the Chorlton line which was a Rail Line. They should be converted back to Normal Rail lines.

So which Manchester station would you route them to? The advantage of metrolink is that it allows more long distance trains to use the congested routes into Piccadilly and Victoria.

For the Bury line, Victoria (Convert the two Metrolink Platforms) and the Altrincham and Chorlton Lines, Re-Open Manchester Central.

[lawton27]

Perhaps we should consider there may be more ridership because the metrolink is easier, I'd much rather hop on a tram than go through the hassle of buying a train ticket, especially for short journeys such as the ones involved here...

[Pilot]

Perhaps we should consider there may be more ridership because the metrolink is easier, I'd much rather hop on a tram than go through the hassle of buying a train ticket, especially for short journeys such as the ones involved here...

You still have to buy a ticket for the Tram. Just use the Ticket Machines at the Station, but also a manned ticket office.

[lawton27]

You still have to buy a ticket for the Tram. Just use the Ticket Machines at the Station, but also a manned ticket office.

Did you notice my location

Yes I know! I haven't used the tram in a while so do correct me if I'm wrong, you just buy a tram ticket at the station and hop on the next tram (going where you want of course). Whereas for a train you have to deal with peak times, off peak times and catch the train at the right time, they're less frequent etc, all in all more hassle which I don't think is worth it for such a short journey, I'd rather get the bus!

[Pilot]

We could enlarge one of the stations for that job

That sounds easy with all that empty space in central Manchester......

Would it be possible to reopen Manchester Central?

Also we might have to expand Central or Picadilly when HS2 reaches Manchester

Yes it would be possible, its right next to Deansgate-Castlefield Metrolink Station. For HS2 they could re-open Manchester Mayfield.

@Lawton: Yep your right, Maybe for these line they can just roll out a standard price system, like they should do on most Suburban lines. Get Bombardier to build the new stock (More jobs in Derby) and build a Tram line (not converting Rail lines) in Leeds or expand Birmingham's. The trams are every 12 and trains can do that.

[61653]

One thing I will say about re-opening Rail lines, The Manchester - Altrincham and Manchester - Bury lines that were converted to Light Rail (Manchester Metrolink) was a Disaster. Yes, it has improved ridership, because the stock is newer, however, the Capacity of the Trains is much lower, meaning the Trams are Over-crowded. They are also re-opening the Chorlton line which was a Rail Line. They should be converted back to Normal Rail lines.

So which Manchester station would you route them to? The advantage of metrolink is that it allows more long distance trains to use the congested routes into Piccadilly and Victoria.

For the Bury line, Victoria (Convert the two Metrolink Platforms) and the Altrincham and Chorlton Lines, Re-Open Manchester Central.

I'm sure that Manchester city council would be cool with losing a major conference and exhibition space they not long ago spent £millions on refurbishing! Not to mention that one of the few benefits of the 60s/70s/80s cutbacks of the railway network in Greater Manchester was the concentration of services on the 2 (3 if you count the Oxford Road bay that was originally provided for the Altringham DC service) termini in the city centre. In any case, both Manchester termini need expansion to reduce congestion on existing services- There's a huge swathe of space at Victoria that was once covered by platforms that really ought to be re-used, though the cost of repairing what remains of the listed overall roof is a hindrance. Part of the Manchester hub proposal is to quadruple the through-lines (plat. 13&14) at Piccadilly. Considering the amount of money this will cost simply at the station site, let alone widening the viaduct down to Oxford Road, and there's going to be little money left over for anything else. There's going to be another major problem in Manchester if and when HS2 arrives- I'd suggest building a new terminus on the site of Mayfield Goods/Mail station, which still stands derelict adjacent to Piccadilly- this could be linked by both a raised travelator/walkway and a short Metrolink spur.

Also, the Bury lines at the time of conversion were using life-expired inrastructure and stock, which was also non-standard. The line would have required a complete rebuild in any case, and conversion to 25kv overhead along with modern (even by 1992 standards) signalling etc, would have cost easily as much as the Metrolink works on the same section of track. Keeping the non-standard electrification may have been an option, but this would mean buying new non-standard trains (probably a variation of the 456) or converting some of the then-spare 508s. Even de-electrifying would have required a new build of sprinters or pacers. Also, although each tram may not hold as many passengers as a 504 (or a 508); line-of-sight operation means the service now can operate to a far higher frequency than would be possible on a heavy-rail system, even though the service on the Bury lines was pretty frequent in the early 1960s. The total capacity of 2 M5000 trams working in multiple is 416, so potential capacity is considerably higher than if the line was being run by 142s.

[Kevo00]

Of course, back in BR days, services like Huddersfield-Sheffield were subsidised at least partially by the profits made on the Trans-Pennine expresses (though both services ran at a lower frequency than the 1tph/4tph respectively that runs today= though in the case of TPEx was 2x 7-8coach loco hauled services per hour, rather than 4x 2/3-car 170/185s). The fact that at least in this part of the world, the express trains are run by a separate franchise holder from the stoppers means more direct subsidy is required for the latter (and that's before you consider the whole problem of private companies being motivated by profit)- even in BR days many services were subsidised, but on a 'break-even' basis rather than funding Messrs. Lockhead/Souter et al.

Finally, some common sense round here! A more unified private operator could do this too...

[61653]

Of course, that is one of the reasons there's been a shift to larger franchises centred on the London termini (in the case of Greater Western/Greater Anglia): The idea being that operators of Intercity/commuter services into Paddington/Liverpool Street make so much on those services that it covers more of the cost of the Devon/Cornwall/Norfolk branches. Of course, the elephant in the room is still the very nature of what motivates private companies!

[Dave]

I can't believe I'm reading idiotic, rose-tinted rubbish about re-opening Mayfield and Central.

I don't know if you've been into Manchester Central at any point since it was converted but, er... it ain't a railway station no more...

This thread has gone in a bizarre direction where people are talking about pipe dreams that have zero chance of ever occurring. Frigging Mayfield!!!

And someone's seriously just suggested "converting" the Metrolink platforms to heavy rail affairs at Victoria?

Is this for real!?!?!?

[Griff]

Alan Fry has actually gone and got himself banned from RailUk forums. Nuff Said. Don't feed the troll people, don't feed the troll.