Pendolino - ECML

[Griff]

I'll compile some sources later, but word on the grapevine has a Pendolino doing a test run down the ECML to King's Cross next week.

[Pilot]

I feel that it would be a good idea to order about 31+ Pendolinos for the ECML, that would increase capacity (especially if they are 11+ car) and allow the transfer of Class 91/Mark 4/Mark 4 DVT stock to other rail links eg London to Norwich Services. If they were moved to the GEML, then the Mark 3 stock cold be used on HST trains

Good Idea. Then the Class 90's could be snapped up by DBS, FL or (possibly) DRS.

[EXTspotter]

Those routes are ridiculous for the use of that stock. Using 91s on London - Norwich is only just about justifiable. Also is the electrification of a high enough standard to take such an energy hungry locomotive? Its the reason why EC couldn't use them to Skipton because they drew too much power at the expense of the other electric trains on the line...

Electrify London - Bristol Parkway (- Bristol TM) - Cardiff and start the ball rolling on the related lines (Cardiff - Swansea, Bristol - Swindon via Bath, Bristol - Taunton, Reading - Exeter - Plymouth). Then you'll have more than enough places to put the 91s...

[Geo Ghost]

if the 91's leave the ECML, I will cry!.

Also, cheers for the info on this one. I think there was a plan to have the 390's tested on the ECML a year ago. Pity it's taken so long.
Do you have any more info on it? Or know where to find such

[Griff]

I got the news from this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=61580

Posts dealing with specific timings:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.ph ... ostcount=8
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.ph ... stcount=41

[JamieLei]

What's the point of having Pendyleeeenos on the ECML? The line is already suitable for 125mph without tilt.

[EXTspotter]

The only high speed mainline with any real need for tilting is the WCML. The ECML is flat and straight (and very very boring) and the ex-GWR stuff was built to be as flat and with as wide corners as possible...

[Geo Ghost]

I got the news from this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=61580

Posts dealing with specific timings:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.ph ... ostcount=8
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.ph ... stcount=41

Oh bloody hell. Those are not nice times

Jamie, whilst I wouldn't mind seeing a Pendo on the line as a one-off, you are right!

The ECML does not need tilting trains at all. In fact, that's why the APT program was for the WCML and the Electra Project for the ECML.
The APT was perfect for the WCML due to the number of turns, curves and the fact the line was very 'wibbly wobbly' and most trains had to slow down- not achieving the full 125 full speed.
However, the ECML was much straighter and full 125 running could be achieved almost throughout (except some areas where speed had to be dropped slightly). Hence how the Electra project came about for the ECML - the need for a high-=speed electric loco to pull a new rake of mk4 coaches over long distance etc etc with no need for tilt. We now know this today as the Intercity 225 Though I think they should have kept the codename 'Electra' personally.

[Pilot]

What's the point of having Pendyleeeenos on the ECML? The line is already suitable for 125mph without tilt.

So that they can have 140 mph services on the ECML

Class 91's are capable of 140 mph, Hence the name Intercity 225. 225 being kmh which is 140mph. The fact is the Track and Signalling isn't up to 140 mph running as far as I know.

[Griff]

Not to mention the OHLE comes down just by looking at it.

[Chris]

Not to mention the OHLE comes down just by looking at it.

Didn't they trial 140mph running between Peterborough and Grantham with 5 aspect signals once (the fifth aspect being a flashing green), although they obviously decided that in cab signalling is actually needed.

[Geo Ghost]

What's the point of having Pendyleeeenos on the ECML? The line is already suitable for 125mph without tilt.

So that they can have 140 mph services on the ECML

Not possible and also not required.
The maximum line speed on the ECML is 125mph. In fact, no line in the UK exceeds 125mph as a (constant) maximum speed with the exception of HS1.

I believe the plan was to have them slowly replace the ageing HST stock in the future and also as generally better, more efficient and safer than current stock. Plus allowing for more people on board with a better journey experience. However, the 91's still have a lot of life left in them and there doing a good job still. Still quite efficient considering their age and the rakes are very well fitted out for a comfortable passenger experience.

The HST's are ageing a bit now. Still quite a bit of life left in them though what with the engines being changed a few years ago and they are constantly checked over and serviced to ensure top running order. The rakes, like the 225's, are well fitted out to match.
There will be a day when they need replacing though and, as far as I remember, that was the plan with the new Pendolinos. I emphasize was because I'm not entirely sure if that is the main reason now. Reliability may be another but speed certainly isn't a justified reason when the current stock runs at the same speed as the Pendolinos anyway.
Another reason why tilting is unnecessary is that the majority of track is banked on the curves anyway so all trains are forced into a tilt anyway. Sometimes not easy to see by eye but two most noticeable places are between Knebworth and the Welwyn tunnels (I found this out once on a slow train and suddenly losing my centre of balance completely) and also on the way into Peterborough.

Not to mention the OHLE comes down just by looking at it.

Yup. That too! Could be worse. At least it's not like the East Anglia line which pretty much sags when ever the weather gets hot!

[Pilot]

What they should do is electrfy the routes done by HSTs and replace them with Pendolino, which can run with the Class 91/Mark 4 fleet

What, up to Aberdeen and Inverness, Are you serious, what would be the need?

[Geo Ghost]

Edit:
Bah. A321Pilot beat me to it

Possibly. But again, is it worth the cost? Since a lot of the HST routes do not have a huge amount of traffic running on them (Between Inverness and Aberdeen for example).

Those that do, have more efficient trains running along the route anyway that will probably phase out the HST's in time - The Great Western Mainline being the example there with Voyagers doing a lot of the work now as well.
Also, it's worth remembering about the Intercity Express Program which is still being thrown around. Agility Trains are the ones that are (hopefully) planned to replace the HST stock on the great western and ECML during this decade. That I would MUCH rather prefer as opposed to Pendolinos. Why? Because they are built in Britain As opposed to the Pendolino fleet which are now built in Italy.
However, I will not be happy if they just scrap HST's. A number need to be kept for the future. Either as reserve locos or for preservation. Personally, I still wish and hope for the day the repaint one in the Intercity Swallow Livery. And put the old light clusters back in so the engines don't have a mentally challenged look to them any more...

I still think all our trains should be built in the UK. Not contracting others outside the UK to build them. Just seems silly to me. Surely you'd want to contract a company that is based in Britain or at least has a factory in Britain. More jobs, supports the economy and the railway infrastructure. Surely?

[Chris]

I still think all our trains should be built in the UK. Not contracting others outside the UK to build them. Just seems silly to me. Surely you'd want to contract a company that is based in Britain or at least has a factory in Britain. More jobs, supports the economy and the railway infrastructure. Surely?

I don't agree that all trains should be built in the UK, as such a monopoly would result in a British Leyland style of s***, although I do think that the effect on jobs and the economy should be factored into decide what is the cheapest builder. You do have to remember that Bombardier is Canadian though...

[Geo Ghost]

True, true.
Ok, perhaps just there should be more things made in Britain perhaps.
Although Bombardier is Canadian, they still have factories over here

[orudge]

What they should do is electrfy the routes done by HSTs and replace them with Pendolino, which can run with the Class 91/Mark 4 fleet

What, up to Aberdeen and Inverness, Are you serious, what would be the need?

Up to Aberdeen, yes please. (Actually, it'd probably have to be Inverurie, due to the Aberdeen Crossrail project with trains heading there instead of Aberdeen to terminate.) Inverness is perhaps less of a priority (although the Highland Main Line could do with other improvements), but having Aberdeen - Edinburgh electrified would mean a load of diesel trains could be phased out and replaced with electric trains in the future, and would mean that trains wouldn't have to run all the way from London to Edinburgh as diesel just because Edinburgh - Aberdeen isn't electrified.

The Forth and Tay Bridges apparently may pose some engineering challenges, though, but they should probably be done at some point!

[Ameecher]

What they should do is electrfy the routes done by HSTs and replace them with Pendolino, which can run with the Class 91/Mark 4 fleet

What, up to Aberdeen and Inverness, Are you serious, what would be the need?

Aberdeen is already planned to be done by the Scottish Government, and frankly, sod Inverness, or stick a 57 on the front.

[Pilot]

Just a query, what normally runs the Edinburgh - Aberdeen route and where would they most likely get cascaded to?

[orudge]

You normally have ScotRail 170s up here, plus some CrossCountry 220s (maybe 221s? I'm not sure) and East Coast 43s. Occasionally ScotRail may run some 158s too. With regards to where they could go - well, if they ever get the Borders railway finished (currently estimated at 2014 at the earliest, I believe), I guess they'll need some rolling stock, but I somehow think it'll be at least the end of the decade before we see electrification up here, if not later.