Version 2.0 - Look to the Future

[Zephyris]

Yeah anyway the original devs aren't to blame and did a good job for the monitors of the time. But the world really has moved on.

We recently started to ask for 32bpp sprites for NewGRFs. While personally I consider this one part of the journey to make 32bpp more mainstream (and in a 2nd step later then add the option for double-sized sprites), the response to step in and provide 32bpp sprites was not exactly overwhelming - even though sprites for some of what we asked for should actually exist already.

In my source files for opengfx I have 32bpp versions of most of the sprites I drew... Is it time to dig these up and use them?

[Lord Aro]

indeed

[planetmaker]

Yeah anyway the original devs aren't to blame and did a good job for the monitors of the time. But the world really has moved on.

We recently started to ask for 32bpp sprites for NewGRFs. While personally I consider this one part of the journey to make 32bpp more mainstream (and in a 2nd step later then add the option for double-sized sprites), the response to step in and provide 32bpp sprites was not exactly overwhelming - even though sprites for some of what we asked for should actually exist already.

In my source files for opengfx I have 32bpp versions of most of the sprites I drew... Is it time to dig these up and use them?

Yes

We've now fully converted OpenGFX to use NML sources. Thus utilizing NML's support for 32bpp sprites it now became tremendously easier to add 32bpp sprites to the set.

[Zephyris]

Cool! I shall upload them asap (which unfortunately may be a little while, but I will aim for as soon as I can)...

[Captain Rand]

Hmmm... Seems like this topic has faded away. Shame, lots of good ideas being shared.

To get back to Wasila's original question.....

what should our new goal be?

My answer? In a word, Convergence.
More specifically, the complete merging of TTDXP and OTTD. It seems strange to have two branches of the same game with different features, as well as being counterproductive and very frustrating.

For example, I play OTTD and would dearly like to use the American transition set, but I can't. It's TTDXP specific. Which brings me to my next point. Convergence must not break any existing mods.

Another goal would be to take advantage of the processing power of todays multi core computers. I like large maps, but get frustrated when everything starts slowing down.

Also:

This is not a page for individual feature requests - you can go to the Suggestions forum for that.

Yes you can, but think of it this way. The goal could be to make all these great suggestions possible, without necessarily implementing them. That can be left to GRF writers, and would make their task a lot easier.

I've seen talk here of someone doing a Lomo clone. Counterproductive again. We would end up with the same situation again, ie, OTTD/OpenLomo. Then we would need another convergence. Better I think would just be to incorporate the features from Lomo into OTTD, skipping the middle step

Having done some programming myself, I'm fully aware that all of this may involve re-writing vast amounts of code. From what I've seen, I know the devs are up to the task.

Pete.

[Michi_cc]

For example, I play OTTD and would dearly like to use the American transition set, but I can't. It's TTDXP specific.

How did you manage to reach that conclusion? All of the US something NewGRFs that I know of are supported by OpenTTD since long ago.

-- Michael Lutz

[Captain Rand]

For example, I play OTTD and would dearly like to use the American transition set, but I can't. It's TTDXP specific.

How did you manage to reach that conclusion? All of the US something NewGRFs that I know of are supported by OpenTTD since long ago.

-- Michael Lutz

Including ATS? It's not in the ingame content downloader. I guess I'll have to try a manual install

What do you think about convergence?

[planetmaker]

Note that a NewGRF need not be found in the online content to work with OpenTTD. NewGRFs are only found in the online content if at least one of the authors cares to upload it there. I know about one or two NewGRFs which do not work with at least some versions of OpenTTD. But there it is the explicit choice of the NewGRF authors. The American Transition Set is not one of them and works nicely with OpenTTD. Did you even try?

And what do you understand under 'convergence'? Did you ever try to load a TTDP savegame in OpenTTD? If not: why not?

[Captain Rand]

Well slap my face with a wet fish, it worked! Thanks guys!

I actually did try to use ATS soon after I discovered OTTD. Obviously I did something wrong then and assumed it was "TDDP only".
I did it right this time. However, as for working nicely, some locomotives are missing in the temperate climate, while the default one's are still there. Arctic and desert work just fine. I'm sure it's not a bug in ATS. It's a minor point and I'll live with it, but as Temperate is my preferred setting it's a bit of a pain. I guess I'll be playing in the Arctic!

@ Planetmaker

I've never tried to load a savegame, neither TDDP or OTTD, mainly because I would want to play with GRF's of my own choosing. I don't use scenario's for the same reason.

But back on topic... As to what I mean by convergence, I thought I made it pretty clear in my original post

More specifically, the complete merging of TTDXP and OTTD. It seems strange to have two branches of the same game with different features

American Transition set was a bad example. I've seen some other examples in recent posts. I'll find them again and refer you to them.

Do you always beat people up on their first day? Whatever happened to "Welcome to the forums"?

Pete.

[Captain Rand]

@ Planetmaker.

OK I found a few. These relate to custom bridgeheads

On Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:15 am, Wallyweb wrote here http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... tart=520;p

Until features such as the reality offered by custom bridgeheads reach OpenTTD, in my opinion (and that of several others) TTDPatch remains the scenario creator's venue of choice.

And on Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:56 pm, ZxBiohazardZx wrote here http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... ds#p999286

Custom BridgeHeads (CBH) is on the wishlist of A LOT of people and it is the only reason i still use TTDP in some of my citygames

And in a PM last night from SAC

Having access to CBH, Custom BridgeHeads, is essential to create that "crowded" feeling with bridges and tunnels everywhere,

OTTD lack this feature and that's the reason why I still play TTDP. As simple as that!

And furthermore, just to prove I'm not talking out of my rear end..... From earlier in this thread

- resolve the remaining features that are in TTDPatch and aren't in OpenTTD

All the above are long term and respected members of our community.

Good enough for you?

These forums are littered with "TDDP has [insert feature], why aren't they in OTTD"

Our community is a splintered one ( and yes, even though I'm the newbie here I do consider myself part of it). If we would like TT to last another 20 years and bring in new players and contributors, the two halves need to become whole. I believe this is a worthwhile goal.

BTW sorry about the clumsy quotes and inserts, I never really post on forums ( I wonder why that is..... ) (although I'd like to be an active member on this one).

Pete.

[Rubidium]

These forums are littered with "TDDP has [insert feature], why aren't they in OTTD"

Because in mainstream OpenTTD we only accept features that are sound, don't look like an utter hack and do not break something in ugly ways. It's easy to add all the missing major features from TTDPatch into OpenTTD in a hacky fashing. But it's better to add it in a nice fashion, e.g. being able to build level crossings on bridge heads, however OpenTTD has to account for things such as multiplayer whereas TTDPatch doesn't need to (and usually just doesn't). This means that TTDPatch doesn't need to account for basically four owners on a tile: road, tram, rail and bridge... or even 5 when we want to allow two different rail types on a tile. Then we also support twice as many companies. However, our map array isn't significantly bigger than TTDPatch. We could ofcourse easily (hack!) enlarge it, but that would waste lots of memory and make performance poorer due to cache misses.

So there you have it: we don't have it due to a) multiplayer and b) performance reasons. Although many of the performance reasons could be alleviated when we ditch multiplayer. So the major reason for not having those things is: multiplayer; something that doesn't work great in TTDPatch.

[Captain Rand]

Hi Rubidium!

Lots of useful information there, you very neatly explained a lot of the hurdles that would need to be overcome. Thanks!
However, I think you may have misunderstood the statement you quoted (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I wasn't actually asking "why?" myself, rather:

"TDDP has [insert feature], why aren't they in OTTD"

should be taken as a whole statement that

These forums are littered with

Furthermore, as more GRF's and other mods come on line, TDDP players are increasingly being neglected as fewer mods are compatible with TDDP.

As I said

Our community is a splintered one

To get back on topic, that is "What goal for 2.0". If you were to adopt Convergence as your goal, and regarding Multiplayer, perhaps you could have the option to run the game in two modes, with Multiplayer as a sort of "TT Lite" ( I would never suggest a fork, that would defeat the whole object). It's a compromise, sure, but only until performance issues can be dealt with. And computers are getting more powerful every day!

Is Wasila still around? I wonder what he thinks of this. Are you there?

Pete.

[Lord Aro]

I would answer these questions with this: why?
TTDP has very few users nowadays, usually only because of the missing features specified previously, this is shown by the fact that the last commit was in august

also, *TTDP

[Captain Rand]

Why? Why what? Could you elaborate please?

Is It "Why should we adopt convergence as a goal?" ?
Or is it ( as I suspect) "Why should we bother with the "few remaining " TTDP players?" ?

If it is indeed the latter...... Words fail me.

Pete.

[Lord Aro]

well, both i guess

can you elaborate about why not 'bothering' with the remaining TTDP players would be such a bad thing?

[Captain Rand]

Yes I can.

For one thing it's extraordinarily selfish. Think of it this way, If it wasn't for TTO, we wouldn't have TTDP, and if we didn't have TTDP, I strongly doubt we'd have OTTD.

As for "Why convergence?", Don't you want all those cool features in TDDP?

Pete.

[FooBar]

Or is it ( as I suspect) "Why should we bother with the "few remaining " TTDP players?" ?

TTDPatch hasn't had a single active developer in over a year. In the same time, OpenTTD has gained several new features.
NewGRF authors who want to use these features have no choice but to abandon TTDPatch, as TTDPatch simply cannot use a grf with these features in it. And given the considerably lower amount of players, it's mostly far too much effort for too little benefit to make a special version for TTDPatch. And in the meantime, while most newgrfs are open source, nobody has bothered to take a popular one and modify it to work with TTDPatch either.

So it works from all sides: no development > no new features > no new newgrfs > no new players. And no new players > no development. And no new newgrfs > no new players. It's sad because of all the effort that went into TTDPatch. But it's what's going on right now.

For one thing it's extraordinarily selfish.

It's basically the TTDPatch developers that pulled the plug (silently). They consider it 'done'. But OpenTTD keeps marching on full speed ahead.
But if you think it's selfish, why don't you start contributing to TTDPatch? Either directly by adding new features to it so that modern NewGRFs work it it. Or indirectly by creating/modifiying NewGRFs so they work with the Patch?

[Captain Rand]

Hello Foobar!

I understand and agree with pretty much everything you said

It's sad because of all the effort that went into TTDPatch.

Sad, Yes. But wasted effort? Not at all. At the very least it inspired OTTD!

a special version for TTDPatch

This is the point I'm trying to make. We shouldn't need to make special/separate versions for either game. If we can merge TDDP and OTTD there won't be a need for it. there will only be one branch of the game, not two. That's what I've been trying to say all along when I talk about convergence, and the point everyone seems to be missing. Perhaps I've been using the wrong word. Would "Fusion" be better?

why don't you start contributing to TTDPatch?

I fully intend to, but it's defeating the object. I'm looking at NFL atm with the view to working on GRF's and I'll be testing anything I write on TDDP as well as OTTD. But I see this as only an interim measure.
Unfortunately adding features directly is way above my skill level. I don't have a clue when it comes to assembly language. I shouldn' t need to if we Merge OTTD and TDDP.

BTW thanks for FIRS and the Tram Tracks. They're permanent additions to my games!

Pete.

[Yexo]

This is the point I'm trying to make. We shouldn't need to make special/separate versions for either game. If we can merge TDDP and OTTD

While I understand this may look like a good idea to you, it's completely impossible. OpenTTD is written in C++, TTDPatch is written in assembly and needs the original TTD binaries to work. Any "merging" would require rewriting the features TTDPatch has as patches for OpenTTD, which is what has been happening over time already. There are good reasons why the remaining features that TTDPatch has and OpenTTD is missing are still not implemented in OpenTTD (see Rubidiums post).

[planetmaker]

There is no way you can simply "merge" two projects which are this different. OpenTTD and TTDPatch are two separate games, written in totally different languages and have no common code base. It's like if you have a book in English and a book in Chinese, both on architecture and saying "let's merge them". There's not much point. You might try to rewrite a chapter in the other language, but that's it.

Wrt NewGRFs: there should be only a hand full of NewGRFs which won't work with OpenTTD. But OpenTTD meanwhile added loads of extensions to the NewGRF specs which TTDPatch doesn't support. But why should we stop developing this game and adding great new features? FIRS simply is not possible in this form on TTDPatch without _extending_ its NewGRF support.