New graphics format

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 22 Aug 2005 18:50

Problems with the design:

- What website is going to assign the file ID number, and how will it do so?
- Meters seems like a rather large measurement for vehicle size.

Patchman · Post by **Patchman** » 22 Aug 2005 19:07

Alltaken wrote:feel free to add to the list, upload it..... then the next person add to that list.... (the wikilist)

You should probably have a look at the TTDPatch Wiki and see what things can be set there. Bottom of http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0 has links to the various items. You have maybe half of the useful properties, if that...

For vehicles, some things should be generalized, e.g. instead of single/dual-headed, you could provide for a general description of articulated vehicles (both rail and road). You also need a definition of sound effects (starting, stopping, running, tunnel, crossing, etc.) and visual effects (steam/smoke/sparks/etc). You need loading/unloading speed. You need traction type. Tractive effort and air drag. Refit cost, ideally depending on cargo type. For trains, list of (in)compatible wagons (ideally scriptable). Length should be scriptable (to allow Schnabel cars). For aircraft, type of aircraft/compatible airports, acceleration, ground speed. For ships, different speed at sea and in canals is useful.

For buildings, town and map zones it may appear in (grass/desert/snow). Population that lives in it. LA rating cost for demolishing. Animation settings (speed, number of frames, triggers, frequency). Probability of construction. Type (regular/church/stadium/historical/etc).

And you don't even have anything yet for bridges, stations, industries, cargos, ...

Patchman · Post by **Patchman** » 22 Aug 2005 19:30

DaleStan wrote:- Meters seems like a rather large measurement for vehicle size.

Same with the weight, tons is too crude. Even 1/10th ton has shown to be too crude for road vehicles.

Alltaken · Post by **Alltaken** » 23 Aug 2005 01:06

DaleStan wrote:Problems with the design:

- What website is going to assign the file ID number, and how will it do so?
- Meters seems like a rather large measurement for vehicle size.

well why can't we use decimals for meters.... i.e. 10.53 meters...

the website that is being designed for the space at graphics.openttd.org is going to give numbers to graphics.

it will do this based on the properties of the objects, the artist who made it, the country set its in......

the id number also has space for "version" changes if a GFX item has been updated and thus needs to replace a previous one, then the version number on the end is changed.

the website will also be coded into OTTD itself and will provide automatic subscrption based downloading of new Graphics... (not as in a paid subscripton, but based on a "you set the settings you want, it downloads anything new that fits those settings)

Same with the weight, tons is too crude. Even 1/10th ton has shown to be too crude for road vehicles.

i am not opposed to changing this to somthing else, its not like my list is finalised. decimal places might fix this also or Kg would be fine too

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:07 am Post subject:
Alltaken wrote:
feel free to add to the list, upload it..... then the next person add to that list.... (the wikilist)

You should probably have a look at the TTDPatch Wiki and see what things can be set there. Bottom of http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0 has links to the various items. You have maybe half of the useful properties, if that...

k thanks.

as for things like smoke effects.... i think that will come later when i start tackling the GFX handling of the format. the GFX handling is more complex than just the integer stuff. but i agree it needs to be tackled.

Alltaken

toholio · Post by **toholio** » 23 Aug 2005 01:20

DaleStan wrote:- Meters seems like a rather large measurement for vehicle size.

Feel free to work in dm or cm then, just move the decimal point about.

Seriously though, if the base size was some smaller unit, e.g. dm, it would still be necessary to use partial "blocks".

Or were you suggesting some kind of imperial units? At least with SI units it'll be the system most people are used to and it's easier to express smaller sizes in terms of larger units.

My inner engineer feels we should be working in mm.

toholio · Post by **toholio** » 23 Aug 2005 01:27

Alltaken wrote:
Same with the weight, tons is too crude. Even 1/10th ton has shown to be too crude for road vehicles.
i am not opposed to changing this to somthing else, its not like my list is finalised. decimal places might fix this also or Kg would be fine too

What about a format where the multiplier can be specified? It complicates parsing slightly but makes it easier to enter vastly different sizes. Internally the game could use some convenient base unit.

toholio · Post by **toholio** » 23 Aug 2005 01:27

Alltaken wrote: well why can't we use decimals for meters.... i.e. 10.53 meters...

We could but your list of things the new format needs specified integer meters.

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 23 Aug 2005 01:33

toholio, please use that EDIT button. It's there for a reason.

Alltaken wrote:well why can't we use decimals for meters.... i.e. 10.53 meters...

a) because you said "integer in ..." (as toholio mentioned)
b) because floating point should be avoided whenever possible. (slow, imprecise, &c.)

Alltaken wrote:
patchman wrote:Same with the weight, tons is too crude. Even 1/10th ton has shown to be too crude for road vehicles.
i am not opposed to changing this to somthing else, its not like my list is finalised. decimal places might fix this also or Kg would be fine too

I would suggest kg for vehicle weight, and one of feet, inches, cm for vehicle length. Please stick to integers whenever possible; AIUI, they have a more reliable binary representation.

Alltaken wrote:the website that is being designed for the space at graphics.openttd.org is going to give numbers to graphics.

it will do this based on the properties of the objects, the artist who made it, the country set its in......

And how will it know which file to update? And better yet, what happens if I want to digitally sign my release?

Alltaken · Post by **Alltaken** » 23 Aug 2005 02:10

DaleStan wrote:toholio, please use that EDIT button. It's there for a reason.

I would suggest kg for vehicle weight, and one of feet, inches, cm for vehicle length. Please stick to integers whenever possible; AIUI, they have a more reliable binary representation.

i think it should "all" be in metric units.
Kg, cm, are fine by me.

And how will it know which file to update? And better yet, what happens if I want to digitally sign my release?

when you are uploading the new GFX file, you simply choose the "update exisitng GFX" button which then you put in the GFX file you will be updating. it will then use the naming scheme of that file.

digitally sign your release? i don't understand.

Alltaken

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 23 Aug 2005 03:17

Alltaken wrote:
DaleStan wrote:And how will it know which file to update? And better yet, what happens if I want to digitally sign my release?
when you are uploading the new GFX file, you simply choose the "update exisitng GFX" button ...

No. You misunderstood what I meant by "file". I assume the new gfx releases will be archives containing multiple files, and one of those files will contain the ID? How do you plan to guarantee that the website can unpack the archive, change the correct file, and repack the archive?

Alltaken wrote:digitally sign your release?

A digital signature is something that guarantees that the file(s) in question (1) came from the signer, and (2) have not been tampered with since having been signed.
If the website changes the archive after it is signed, the signature will be invalidated.

Alltaken · Post by **Alltaken** » 23 Aug 2005 05:37

DaleStan wrote:
Alltaken wrote:digitally sign your release?
A digital signature is something that guarantees that the file(s) in question (1) came from the signer, and (2) have not been tampered with since having been signed.
If the website changes the archive after it is signed, the signature will be invalidated.

no the website doesn't repack files, you simply upload a whole new file containing the changes the original one that it is replacing still remains on the server, the next one just gets the same naming of it, and another version number added to the end.

i don't think the digital signing will become a major issue since the website i don't think would be messing with stuff.

Alltaken

Michi_cc · Post by **Michi_cc** » 23 Aug 2005 13:29

DaleStan wrote:
Alltaken wrote:the website that is being designed for the space at graphics.openttd.org is going to give numbers to graphics.

it will do this based on the properties of the objects, the artist who made it, the country set its in......
And how will it know which file to update? And better yet, what happens if I want to digitally sign my release?

I think it's unpractical to store such information directly into the graphics. That's nothing the engine has to know about. Simply use some kind of readme file, maybe in a fixed format so it can be parsed easily by scripts.

So your release file stays as it is, and any advanced update functionality can be developed separately.

Michael Lutz

Alltaken · Post by **Alltaken** » 24 Aug 2005 00:59

DaleStan wrote: A digital signature is something that guarantees that the file(s) in question (1) came from the signer, and (2) have not been tampered with since having been signed.
If the website changes the archive after it is signed, the signature will be invalidated.

yeah back to this, the deal of the website was to make certain GFX "official"

we will have moderators checking every file that goes through it before accepting any updates to files.

certain artists will be able to request that their GFX files are not updated by anyone else. (in that situation we will only update any files if that artist has disapeared and we need to for compatibility sake)

the website will be fairly well structured, with log-in systems....

the other files that will be put on it will either be GPL or CC, and all the files will need to include the source files for the GFX for them to be accepted.

Alltaken

Gorre · Post by **Gorre** » 24 Aug 2005 16:51

I have two general suggestions to buildings engine. It's not about technicality. I honestly think you should think about the first at least.

1) It's very similiar to the one, which Alltaken has in his mind and has been discussed today on #openttd. Ordinal buildngs have time, when they are actual, when do they begin to appear and when they should stop appearing. In additional to these, I advice some buildings to have something like a 'historical flag', which causes:
- this building is only placed during map generation process - randomly.
- this building can't be build by city again once it has been demolished. Bulldozering penalty is much higher.
- optimal: if there is going to be 'tourism' sometime, this buildng should take play the role in it.
- optimal:: i can image, how is this bulding beign repaired during the time, in 1940 you have a ramshackle church, but in 1990 it has been repaired and now looks very good. However, i can also imagine how hard work this would require.

And why?: At least here in Europe, many historical centres are full of buildings that are older then 100 years (so, there were build earlier then in 1921 when Tycoon my start), so it is stupidly, when these buildings are build. Well, in addition, it is looking strange when city is building 500 years old church.

2) The second suggestion is about more then one building. The game will take correct building depending on their config and put them together in a row. The point is, that these buildings are connected with their walls. (as is on the photo)

These buildings very probably won't need full left a right side, only front and back side. (look at the attached photo).

This suggestion is surely useless, but it adds realism and atmosphere, which is sometimes very important.

MeusH · Post by **MeusH** » 24 Aug 2005 21:27

I got youe point and I find these ideas fitting into the game.

I like simutrans-type historical buildings, and I think these should be in OTTD, too.

Second one is certainly eye-candy, very good eye-candy, I think

bobingabout · Post by **bobingabout** » 25 Aug 2005 08:29

i live in a very old house, don't think its 100 years old yet, but getting close.

Alltaken · Post by **Alltaken** » 25 Aug 2005 09:45

i think "historical" will be built into the game.

in the GFX format i will add a section saying "historical years" so if a building exceeds its lifetime by another 10 years or so, it then becomes historical.

this means modern buildings can also become historical.

the idea of there being "set" historical buildings scares me a bit, since in the future the game may start a lot earlier. so i think its safer to say that some buildings start off as historical just because they exceeded their lifespan before the game even started

.

but i agree... and was there on IRC for the discussion on it

Alltaken

bobingabout · Post by **bobingabout** » 25 Aug 2005 11:37

remember though, that there is a difference between some historical buildings.

a recent discussion around here is the fact that the councel(can't remember if it was this city, or a town nearby) is demolishing 100 year old houses to replace them with new ones, and 1 of the debates was that someone said, "Why replace these sturdy buildings that could stand for another 100 years, with new ones that might not even last 50?"

after all, things are not made like they used to be, in those days they were built to last.

even though something is set as historical, there should still be the chance that in another 100 years of gameplay that it might be demolished(for example, a dark stormy night, the wind rips its roof off.). and if the structure is newer, but still historical, it still might get destroyed, even before the older 1. i'd just say reduce the probability of a "Historic" building being destroyed dramaticly, but each building should have a lifespan, aswell as a building date range. marking it as historical simply multiplies the estimated lifespan.

Alltaken · Post by **Alltaken** » 25 Aug 2005 13:45

historical mearly means it gets different stats to what it used to have. it also means it costs more to destory, and costs a lot more reputation points to remove.

historical buildings will either get more floors added on (like they do here)....

councils can still demolish historical buildings.

Alltaken

bobingabout · Post by **bobingabout** » 25 Aug 2005 14:37

oh, good, i must've just missed it then.

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