SerbianRailSet(ECS,PBI,FIRS&TouristSet compatible)&scenario

[Wile E. Coyote]

Hmm, time to think about new items in set?

Why not?
Here: http://www.railfaneurope.net/list_frameset.html is some important stuff about the Škoda 443 and some new liveries for the 441 and the 661 of TENT mines.

An other idea of me is to keep in the list the locomotives and wagons these are still in use in Serbia, and withdrawn faster all those who are not in use today. For example don't withdrawn the old diesel locomotives ŽS 666, ŽS 661, ŽS 645 and the railcar ŽS 710 (the 710's are build by Kalmar Verkstad/Fiat) because is still in regular use today. You can give more years of life in some locomotives too, 60 years from 30/40 years for the electric locomotives and for the steam locomotives JŽ 33 and 51 and maybe give an life of 40 years to the ŽS 661 because is the most used diesel locomotive in Serbia. Withdrawn faster the ŽS 644, ŽS 662, ŽS 742, ŽS 743 (now stay for ever i the list) because I think all of them are withdrawn today in Serbia. After that is think the SerbianRailSet be more realistic.

If mapt3p agrees with that (he is now coder of the set), we could do something.

In Greece we have a very extended NG network too untill 2011 (1000mm/metric gauge). Now around 95% of this network is out of order because stupid persons say is not necessary. Athens suburbs had NG railways too until 1962. Finally from 2011 the 1/3 of the country is without railways. Here is and old map of the out of order NG network if you interesting:

Yeah, something like in Serbia/former Yugoslavia. Some stupid people concluded that NG railroads are not necessary... At least not all NG railroads in Greece were dismantled. Here is almost necessary to do everything from scratch.

[railman]

With what program do you designed the graphics? I would like to try to help if i can.

[Wile E. Coyote]

I usually use Adobe Photoshop, because it's comfortable to me. Even simple Paint could do the thing.

[railman]

I usually use Adobe Photoshop, because it's comfortable to me. Even simple Paint could do the thing.

I can't promise to do something yet, i never try to draw something serious in computer.
Do you sent to mapt3p to know if agree to do code for a new update of the Set ?

[Wile E. Coyote]

I didn't send PM to him, he'll probably see discussion here.

[railman]

An another idea of me is about a new model of narrow gauge locomotive for the future games. I inspired from the purchase of the russian Metrovagonmash Class 711 by the Serbian Railroads and I thinking: Why not a new narrow gauge locomotive at 2020 ? Time to have some new russian stuff again. The modern russian narrow gauge locomotive TU10 made in Kambarka is a nice machine for adding in the SerbianRailSet! Do you like it Wile E. Coyote ? Can you do that ?

Here is the link with specs of the locomotive in wikipedia (only russian/german/netherlands and polsky language) https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%A310
And here some photos from wikimedia commons may helps to do it in correct scale: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:TU10

And some nice photographs too:

[Wile E. Coyote]

Well, there are a few issues about this locomotive and electric locomotive you posted earlier.

Michael Blunck contacted me, and, like usual, he is live encyclopedia about trains He provided me data, and what I realized, gauge of electric loco is 1000 mm. This is gauge which was common in mines, but it was not used in civil transport. Gauge of Russian loco (which is, I must admit, very intriguing) is also a problem, because it's 750 mm. Serbian narrow gauge is 760 mm, so adding more rail types will make a problem, because there were be no more locomotives for one rail type, but more rail types with only one locomotive. Of course, 760 mm is similar to 750 mm, so IRL probably there could be no problem to make locomotive for Serbian gauge.

Bigger problem is that AFAIK probably there will be no purchasing of new stuff for narrow gauge railways in Serbia or Bosnia (there are some efforts to rebuild NG railroad near Sarajevo). Serbian railways now use old Skoda steamers, and used L45H diesels purchased from Hungarian railways IIRC. Their max. speed is 40 km/h, and this Russian locomotive has max. speed 50 km/h, which could be benefit. Of course, adding new stuff in the set is decision that could be considered Also, I have some NG steamers drawn long time ago. Maybe it's time to dig into archive and find them

[railman]

Michael Blunck contacted me, and, like usual, he is live encyclopedia about trains He provided me data, and what I realized, gauge of electric loco is 1000 mm.

I don't know if the electric Skoda 443 is metric gauge, because in the site railfaneurope.net says the TENT-Termo Elektrana Nikola Tesla have only standard gauge locomotives. I attach some screenshots about the TENT locomotives.

Gauge of Russian loco (which is, I must admit, very intriguing) is also a problem, because it's 750 mm. Serbian narrow gauge is 760 mm, so adding more rail types will make a problem, because there were be no more locomotives for one rail type, but more rail types with only one locomotive. Of course, 760 mm is similar to 750 mm, so IRL probably there could be no problem to make locomotive for Serbian gauge.

Yes, 760 mm is very similar to 750 mm and is no problem for the Kambarka factory to make locomotives for 760mm. Metrowagonmash do the same with the ŽS 711. The ŽS 711 is the standard gauge version of the RZD RA2 which originally made for 1.520mm russian gauge.

Bigger problem is that AFAIK probably there will be no purchasing of new stuff for narrow gauge railways in Serbia or Bosnia

May you are right, may the railroad companies never purchase new narrow gauge trains at the future. But incidentally you do the same when you add in the Set the FIAT ETR 460 Pendolino, the ŽS may never by it.

Serbian railways now use old Skoda steamers, and used L45H diesels purchased from Hungarian railways IIRC. Their max. speed is 40 km/h, and this Russian locomotive has max. speed 50 km/h, which could be benefit. Of course, adding new stuff in the set is decision that could be considered Also, I have some NG steamers drawn long time ago. Maybe it's time to dig into archive and find them

They use the NG Skoda steamers but this steamers after some years is not in purchase list, so is unusable after some years. When ŽS bought the FAUR L45H? In the list i see a Djuro Djakovic 740 Diesel too ( max. speed 61km/h ). Is ŽS a user of this locomotive today? A guy some years before (maybe around 2005) told me about a steamer -sure a black ŽS 83-. Is this locomotives still in use today ?

informations about TENT's electric Skoda 443 and its rail network:

Screenshot-1.png (23.97 KiB) Viewed 4334 times

[Wile E. Coyote]

I don't know if the electric Skoda 443 is metric gauge, because in the site railfaneurope.net says the TENT-Termo Elektrana Nikola Tesla have only standard gauge locomotives. I attach some screenshots about the TENT locomotives.

Hm, strange, I know about TENT standard gauge network, and I know that there are 441 type locos (with light blue livery). Not sure that 443 type were in use on the same railroads, but TENT network is the only mining network that is electrified, for which I doubt that was in metric gauge, and then upgraded to standard gauge. I have to investigate further.

Bigger problem is that AFAIK probably there will be no purchasing of new stuff for narrow gauge railways in Serbia or Bosnia

May you are right, may the railroad companies never purchase new narrow gauge trains at the future. But incidentally you do the same when you add in the Set the FIAT ETR 460 Pendolino, the ŽS may never by it.

I know. There was a plan to buy that tilting train before Yugoslavian wars, but unfortunately, nothing for now Hope there will be some modern trains in the future, thus purchase date is moved to 2020 (in earlier version of set it was, IIRC, 2010). First railroads need to be renewed.

They use the NG Skoda steamers but this steamers after some years is not in purchase list, so is unusable after some years. When ŽS bought the FAUR L45H? In the list i see a Djuro Djakovic 740 Diesel too ( max. speed 61km/h ). Is ŽS a user of this locomotive today? A guy some years before (maybe around 2005) told me about a steamer -sure a black ŽS 83-. Is this locomotives still in use today ?

There is really needed to correct purchase and expiration dates for NG locomotives. Skoda is needed to be retained as well as L45H (they were bought, if I'm right, when Sargan eight railroad was open, in the begining of 2000s), and type 740 is not present nowadays AFAIK. I think that in the middle of 1970s, when NG railroads were dismatled, these locomotives were also cut. Interesting thing is that Djuro Djakovic DMUs were sold abroad (I think in Portugal, but I'm not sure), where they operated for a long time. About type 83, I saw it in front of some railway station somewhere in Serbia, but I'm not sure is it in working condition.

[Ondra770]

Back to the story of these mining locomotives: this is known locomotive, but when this set was in the planning stage, I simply wasn't able to find any data for it, and decided not to include it in the set. Maybe somebody will recognize what type of locomotive it is, and help with some data.

I know these locomotives well. It's 17E built in Škoda Plzeň from 1957 to 1962 and then in SMZ Dubnica nad Váhom from 1963 to 1967. Most of these locomotives were used in the Czechoslovakian coal mines on 900 mm gauge network, 12 locomotives were made for line Bakuriani - Borjomi in Georgia. In Czech Republic was 900 mm gauge network closed in 2003. Two locomotives were sold in 1997 and 2002 to Serbia.

Specifications:
Builder: Škoda Plzeň, SMZ Dubnica nad Váhom
Model: 17E
Production: 1957–1967
Total produced: 262
Gauge: 900 mm
Electric system: 1500 V DC
Loco weight: 64 t
Maximum speed: 45 km/h
Power output: 440 kW
Tractive effort: 180 kN
Length: 13470 mm

More information in czech language and photos can be found there: http://www.prototypy.cz/?rada=17E

[railman]

Skoda is needed to be retained as well as L45H (they were bought, if I'm right, when Sargan eight railroad was open, in the begining of 2000s)

First of all I like very much this steamer Skoda
I think for more realism is better to have the steamer Skoda and the L45H in the purchase list from the early 00's and not at 40ies and 60ies.

type 740 is not present nowadays AFAIK. I think that in the middle of 1970s, when NG railroads were dismatled, these locomotives were also cut. Interesting thing is that Djuro Djakovic DMUs were sold abroad (I think in Portugal, but I'm not sure), where they operated for a long time.

Djuro Djakovic 740 was a locomotive. The Djuro Djakovic 802 was DMU. Are both Djuro Djakovics (740 & 802) out of order nowadays? Because the Djuro Djakovic 740 never withdraw from the list.

[Ondra770]

Two locomotives Djuro Djakovic 740 were sold to Austria and are still in service on Feistritztalbahn as VL22 and VL23.
http://spz.logout.cz/album/at/at_stlbvl22.html
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feistritztalbahn

Another three locomotives were sold to Spain...
http://www.penmorfa.com/JZ/spain.html

[railman]

This site http://www.penmorfa.com/JZ/ is a piece of gold for Yugoslavia's narrow gauges. Among other things says a couple of Djuro Djakovic 740 are still in use in a mine in Bosnia. So Wile E. Coyote keep it in the list

Two locomotives were sold in 1997 and 2002 to Serbia.

This locomotive may is the 17 of my previous post. But what about with the number 18? Wikipedia says in Czech: the locomotive 17 purchase by TENT. But when I found this locos at this site http://www.angelfire.com/co3/drustvo/El ... ctric.html says this electric locos 17, used in REIK open pit coal mine. REIK mines are in Kolubara, Serbia. TENT is near to Obrenovac, Serbia. Are TENT and REIK both buyers of locomotives of this type?

Wile E. Coyote or Ondra770 can you puzzle out this?


Ondra770 here is the text from wikipedia: Po zrušení úzkorozchodného provozu na Sokolovsku v roce 2003 byla většina lokomotiv zrušena a sešrotována. Již dříve však o některé projevil zájem provozovatel elektrárny TENT (Termo elektrarna Nikola Tesla) v Obrenovaci v Srbsku. Odkoupeny byly dvě lokomotivy, které zde po příslušných úpravách zajišťují posun a dopravu na uhelné dráze z Vreoci do elektrárny.

[michael blunck]

Two locomotives were sold in 1997 and 2002 to Serbia.

This locomotive may is the 17 of my previous post.

No, it is not. Locomotives "17" and "18" of your previous post are type "EL-3" built by East-German company LEW. There had been built ~800 units of that model between 1951 and 1978 for a number of countries in the former "eastern block", including 20 units for former Yugoslavija (620 for German Democratic Republic, 102 for Soviet Union).

UIC class: Bo´Bo´
gauge: 900 mm
mass: 75 tons
length: 13,700 mm
max speed: 50 km/h
max power: 4x185 kW
max tractive effort: 235 kN
electric system: 1200 V=

Some links:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEW_EL_3
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEW_EL3
http://home.arcor.de/vt18.16.10/900fz/900e.html#el3
http://www.grubenbahn.de/site01a.htm


The Czech loco by "Ondra770" is a totally different engine. Just take a look on the Czech wikipedia commons photos: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:ChS11

HTH
regards
Michael

[railman]

I don't care so much about locomotives 17 & 18 because are for sure 900mm gauge, so are incompatible with SerbianRailSet.

The Light Blue Livery Skoda 443 is more more interesting and i believe is the most likely a 1435mm standard gauge. I can't found any data about metric gauge Skoda of this type nowhere, only about 1435mm gauge. Lot of years before Coyote posted a photo of this loco at page 11 of this topic (31 Jan 2005). This photo is from Obrenovac TENT mines and there is a light blue livery Skoda 443 next to a light blue livery Traktion Union 441. The Railfaneurope.net says TENT have only a 47km long standard gauge railway, all electrified at 25kV 50Hz. So... 0 km of metric gauge. Until proven otherwise, Skoda 443 is a Skoda 209 or Skoda 210 made in Plzeň.

Czech: https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokomotiva_209

Czech: https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokomotiva_210

Coyote's photo from 2005(Obrenovac TENT): http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=25650

Photo (railfaneurope.net) posted here by me: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=190247

[Wile E. Coyote]

Lot of years before Coyote posted a photo of this loco at page 11 of this topic (31 Jan 2005). This photo is from Obrenovac TENT mines and there is a light blue livery Skoda 443 next to a light blue livery Traktion Union 441. The Railfaneurope.net says TENT have only a 47km long standard gauge railway, all electrified at 25kV 50Hz. So... 0 km of metric gauge.

Yes, you're right. This is the same picture again (I scaled it to be visible without downloading):

Obrenovac.jpg (142.48 KiB) Viewed 4144 times

Until proven otherwise, Skoda 443 is a Skoda 209 or Skoda 210 made in Plzeň.

Really don't have an idea about it. Michael, it seems that this is really standard gauge loco. Do you have any other information?

EDIT: I found everything needed on Serbian rail society forum. It's Skoda type 36E. Whole catalogue is posted there, here is most interesting part:

160_D_1.jpg (66.31 KiB) Viewed 4136 times

And, of course, this:

160_E_1.jpg (46.12 KiB) Viewed 4136 times

TENT railway network was electrified in 1976. There are also 661 type locomotives in TENT rolling stock. Also, metric gauge (which is electrified also) is not a part of TENT network, it's a part of Kolubara network. There are Cocodrilo locomotives operating there, but that could probably be not a part of this set, mainly because of its gauge.

[railman]

Very nice ! Nice stuff ! Where did you find this stuff ? Do you have it in better resolution ?
Can you draw this loco ?

[Wile E. Coyote]

As I said, I found it in Serbian railfan society forum. There are several pages in better resolution there. I think you don't have to be registered to see that part of forum.

And yes, I could draw it. I even could code it (at least I hope I could), but I can't upload it to Bananas. We have to wait for mart3p. I hope he is still monitoring this topic.

[railman]

As I said, I found it in Serbian railfan society forum. There are several pages in better resolution there. I think you don't have to be registered to see that part of forum.

And yes, I could draw it. I even could code it (at least I hope I could), but I can't upload it to Bananas. We have to wait for mart3p. I hope he is still monitoring this topic.

Very nice! But mart3p possibly don't monitoring the topic because his last login was in 13/1/16
If a GRF is not in Bananas, isn't in the -inside the game GRF list- too ?

[Wile E. Coyote]

It is in the Bananas, but mart3p uploaded it, not me. I have to PM him ASAP.