OTTD+500: READ ME 1ST! The future is now (with some help!)

[GeekToo]

Just for fun, a study of the flat tiles, to get the discussion about looks starting

[2007Alain2007]

I take it this is just a dream

[dihedral]

now that this is bumped anyway

I really wish you had not taken upon yourself to combine the threads. There was a very good reason why i wanted these topics split up.

there was (as one can clearly see) a very good reason why this stuff was bundled into one thread - and no, i am pretty sure that stuff it all into one big thread did not stop 'conversation' from taking place.

[...] and conversation to be slowed down or stifled [...]

which conversation?

I fail to see the logic of combining the subjects, and this is actually counterproductive to this mod.

put spam where spam belongs - at least that is how i manage to combine a lot of different emails into one single folder (namely /dev/null)

Petern, please revert the separate threads to their previous state so we can get started.

who's "we"?

[...] but i feel better progress will be made if they are kept separate; [...]

where structure is important for progress, progress also requires people to do the work and not just comment with pages and pages of forum posts.

[SirXavius]

Thanks again dihedral for your positive support! Once again you're there to get the ball rolling and provide motivation for all who wish to make good ideas come thru. Good to know we can count on you for consistent response to inspire development!

For a change in mood, thanks Geek Too for trying. That actually looks very good for the vision of this mod. And Alain2007, this may still only be a dream, but you seem to imply you'd like to see it happen. I've been monitoring this thread and watched it fall farther and farther down the list with lack of interest in actually developing it.

I never promised to take the lead role in moving this idea along, as, like i said in the first post, it would take a long time for even a few people to implement the ideas here. If not enough people are able to contribute, i can't devote time to this by myself. I have a thousand other things i'm doing besides OTTD, PLUS i'm getting back into programming (but not for OTTD).

This idea is probably ahead of its time, so may flounder for a while before enough people want to or are willing to pick it up. Let's just consider it's on the shelf.

One last thing: this was the prediction i made in the first post concerning seeping negativity---

I've seen what causes good ideas to fall by the wayside, and surprisingly enough, it's usually not lack of feasibility; but rather, both lack of support and destructive naysaying, as opposed to constructive criticism.

and dihedral and others are making sure that happens...

[dihedral]

Thanks again dihedral for your positive support! Once again you're there to get the ball rolling and provide motivation for all who wish to make good ideas come thru. Good to know we can count on you for consistent response to inspire development!

i must say - i really do love that humor that really made me smile - really mean that i love that kind of humor

and dihedral and others are making sure that happens...

but you can hardly blame me with my last post to be the cause of over a month of silence in your thread

[Eddi]

I never promised to take the lead role in moving this idea along

honestly, who do you expect to do that for you? if it is your idea, you have to push it with persistence and continuous progress. nobody here has ever seen a single line of code from you, you can't expect people to pick up the lead just from hearing you talking, they need to see actions to get confidence in the project. if you don't have the persistence to pursue a huge task like this by yourself, and then pick people up as they come along (or not), then it may be better for the idea to just die off.

this is not a negative comment. this is a "realistic" view. the list of failed software projects is way longer than the list of successful ones.

[DaleStan]

If not enough people are able to contribute, i can't devote time to this by myself.

Where would TTDPatch be today if Patchman had taken that view?
Where would OpenTTD be today if Ludde had taken that view?
Where would Linux be today if Linus had taken that view?

What makes you think that OTTD+500 won't end up in exactly the same place if you take that view?

[Alberth]

Hello SirXavius,

I've been monitoring this thread and watched it fall farther and farther down the list with lack of interest in actually developing it.

You seem to have fallen in the common trap of thinking that making something public and open source implies you will magically get hundreds of active developers working on your idea.

I never promised to take the lead role in moving this idea along, as, like i said in the first post, it would take a long time for even a few people to implement the ideas here.

Do you need to live from its revenue? Do you have a deadline?
Assuming the answer to both questions is no, what's the problem?

If not enough people are able to contribute, i can't devote time to this by myself. I have a thousand other things i'm doing besides OTTD, PLUS i'm getting back into programming (but not for OTTD).

Nobody said you have to do it all by yourself. That is however always how a project starts. Roughly, there are three groups of people here. Some only play the game in their home, and post suggestions. Some want to help actively on some existing project. Some want to go deep, get a novel subject, and finish it down to the last bit.
Project-wise, the first group is useless as they don't get actively involved. (However, if they encounter a project nice enough and get bored just playing the game, they may shift to the 2nd group, if they manage to stay focused once they find out that being active means that they have to learn a lot of new skills.) The 3rd group is equally useless, as all those people have more ideas and subjects than they can ever manage, and they all have their own projects they work on. They may switch, but only if the project is sufficiently fundamentally new. At this moment, your project needs to do a lot of basic ground-work first before it gets even remotely interesting for them.
So your best bet for help is the middle group. The keyword there is "existing", which means there has to be code, graphics, or other concrete usable stuff around what they can use in the current game, and extend in some way. (It is infinitely easier to extend something than it is to start from scratch.)
However, be realistic, and expect few and small contributions only, in the first years (not enough to make good progress).

This idea is probably ahead of its time, so may flounder for a while before enough people want to or are willing to pick it up. Let's just consider it's on the shelf.

Probably not. In my view, it lacks a person with enough dedication to start working on it (ie a person of the 3rd group). The only feasible person with those qualities is you (all other persons of the 3rd group are busy with their own projects, and are unlikely to prefer your idea above one of their own, just like you prefer to make your own idea instead of helping somebody else realising his idea).
Thus, unless you decide you invest time in it, and start making things usable enough for others to extend, the project will stay as dead as it is now.

One last thing: this was the prediction i made in the first post concerning seeping negativity---

I've seen what causes good ideas to fall by the wayside, and surprisingly enough, it's usually not lack of feasibility; but rather, both lack of support and destructive naysaying, as opposed to constructive criticism.

No, it is you that let it happen.

With any sufficiently large project, some people will think you are nuts to even try.
Analyse their reasoning, and try to learn from it (most times, it is criticism in the sense of 'he, did you think of this and this?', and they may have a point). If you think their reasoning is flawed, ignore it.
Until you hit a fundamental problem, simply push on, and work on the project in whatever non-zero pace you can/want.

Yes, maybe nobody joins you.
Yes, you may never finish.
So what?
The point of the project is not the project, but the fun you have doing it imho.
(and if you, as person with the original idea, doesn't think it is fun enough to do, what would we think?)

Look how IS and/or Cargo Distribution started (and also look at how many people are actively contributing to get a realistic estimate of what may happen in the first few years).
Look how OpenGFX or FIRS developed for graphics projects.

Look how I started doing GUI code refactoring now almost 2 years ago. After about 1 year working on the problem every weekend (I also did a few other things), I can now see code moving towards a really nice flexible structure (and very different than I had in mind originally).
Yes, I have read previous attempts that said "the amount of work is too large to even start" before. I thought their reasoning was flawed (I don't have a time-line or a time when the code change should be finished), so I pushed on.

My project is not interesting enough for other people to join (code refactoring is not highly exciting work).
Your project however is so wide, that several people can work on parts they like. It only needs you to demonstrate that you mean business, and that the project is alive and kicking (just like you they don't want to invest time in a dead project that even the founder doesn't like enough to keep it alive).

Sincerely,
Albert

[ever]

The point of the project is not the project, but the fun you have doing it imho.

lol, how sappy

[dihedral]

The point of the project is not the project, but the fun you have doing it imho.

lol, how sappy

that is my favorite line to be honest
that just expresses it all, some people play, others code instead

[andythenorth]

The point of the project is not the project, but the fun you have doing it imho.

lol, how sappy

Well it certainly isn't for the money. Maybe it's the fame. That's probably it. The fame.

@ SirXavius. "Homesteading the Noosphere" is a classic essay about open source from the same guy who wrote "the Cathedral and the Bazaar". If you look past all the waffle about Lockean property rights it's pretty good on hacker culture and how projects get started and attract contributors. Worth reading.

cheers,

Andy

[ever]

If I ever become a very rich man who has money to throw around I'd probably pay a few coders to put some of my ideas in an open source project or get the ideas moving along faster.

Really that's how the world works, when you have money you can be the boss, when you don't you can only do things with your own hand.

If you want to be a leader no one is going to assign the position to you, you're going to have to offer them something in return and offering them the "privelage" of bossing them around is usually not lucrative enough.

In conclusion if you want your ideas in the game a)hope someone with skill has the same idea and passion for them b)do it yourself c)go do something you're skilled at, earn the money, exchange the money for the skills of a coder and get your idea in the game

[DanMacK]

Somehow I missed this the first time around (I usually haunt the graphics forums...), but I'm very interested in the concepts suggested here. I always thought future technology or a "colony" type of scenario would be interesting in TTD ever since I played the Mars mod. I'd love to see a more "realistic" scenario for the far future, and this shows there's a plan in place.

Graphics sets alone take years to come together. Case in point, the JapanSet, the CanSet, the Dutch Set, the Finnish set... to name but a few. This mod is much more ambitious, buit not impossible to implement. Some things are possible now as the tracking thread states.

Dock behaviour as you're describing it could theoretically done with bouys as in TTDP. Nobody has implemented the "Bouys as Stations" patch in OTTD, but maybe it's about time. Other limitations would be possible as well I would assume.

I have A LOT of projects on my plate at the moment, but I'd be interested in contributing at least some vehicle sprites in the future.

Basically, if you ever want this to come to fruition, you need to take the reins and push your vision. If you want to see something happen, be a leader. Other people will come on board and some will leave as developemnt continues. This is the natural progression of any development project. Once some progress starts being made and graphics and such are drawn that require these features, that'll likely prompt other changes to take place.

I would say set up a website devoted to this, I'm sure Owen can provide space for it. Alternatively, you can set something up on the OTTD Wiki. The website would be a good starting point however. It would show that there is a vision and serve as a central repository for graphics, tracking and such. Discussion and progress updates can continue here as well.

Looking forward to further development on this. It'll take A LOT of time and A LOT of effort, but the results will be worth it.

[SirXavius]

For all who have criticized me for not doing anything about this idea, let me reiterate:

I have a thousand other things i'm doing besides OTTD

That is all you need to know, and nothing you say is going to clear my table or inspire to do what YOU want. I might get interested in helping it along with real graphics and real NFO coding if i saw more interest, but my priorities are my own. I'm inspired to many things and all i wanted to do was put this out there for posterity. If i saw it would catch on, then i could spend my valuable time on it.

I was under no illusions about how "popular" it would be, because anyone who worked on it would be doing it solely on their enthusiasm for such a project. I asked for (and got) the advice of good folks like Roujin, George, Zephyris, and others, so i could at least glean the inspiration for feasibility. They were extremely positive and helpful, and a couple offered to be part of the project if they could find the time and presumably the motivation.

On the flip side, i can infer from the posts of DaleStan, and Alberth (who prob'ly spent way too much time criticizing me for something he can't control), that they would both like to see this happen. Instead of spending time trying to "motivate" me to take the mantle, perhaps they can devote their valuable time to some serious contributions. Hmm? Or would you both rather lob the ball back into my court and make it sound like i'm the one that should be doing something? (in which case i will refer you to the above quote )

[Eddi]

I have a thousand other things i'm doing besides OTTD

that is true for exactly everybody else around here. nobody is telling you to dedicate your whole live. but this is your idea, all initiative must come from you.

[belugas]

For all who have criticized me for not doing anything about this idea, let me reiterate:

I have a thousand other things i'm doing besides OTTD

Or would you both rather lob the ball back into my court and make it sound like i'm the one that should be doing something? (in which case i will refer you to the above quote )

When looking at the very detailed description of your concept, I sincerely do wonder where you got the time to write it down. In fact, that lead me to believe you made a sane plan and were preparing the after-announcement work.
But seeing that you just left other people doing it all for you, I wondered if you had not wasted way too much energy on the plan and nothing on the realization.

But... as I can see, you prefer to draw plans, to criticize and applauds other people jobs.
I'm sorry for you. And I wish you better success in your other projects

[SirXavius]

When looking at the very detailed description of your concept, I sincerely do wonder where you got the time to write it down.

If you are an artist, then you understand the dynamic here. OTTD+500 as an idea is the project for me. The object was to get the inspiration (of work) into reality. Actually making it a real mod would be the recreation, but getting the idea from my brain to anyone else's was for me the project. Everything else is icing on the cake. It would be like me composing a great rock track (which i do), then you getting it, putting on your CD rack, and playing it at a party.

But... as I can see, you prefer to draw plans, to criticize and applauds other people jobs.
I'm sorry for you. And I wish you better success in your other projects

Boy, have you misinterepreted everything. Pity should be given to you, belugas; i have great respect for you. And you seem to wish to squander it by being condescending.

And not that i care to tell anyone else, but all of my other projects ARE successes as long as the inspiration is properly manifest. This one was. If i see some semblance of a wave, i'll go surfing with you!

[Alberth]

On the flip side, i can infer from the posts of DaleStan, and Alberth (who prob'ly spent way too much time criticizing me for something he can't control), that they would both like to see this happen. Instead of spending time trying to "motivate" me to take the mantle, perhaps they can devote their valuable time to some serious contributions. Hmm? Or would you both rather lob the ball back into my court and make it sound like i'm the one that should be doing something? (in which case i will refer you to the above quote )

From reading your posts, I thought you wanted your project to become realised. This idea was further re-inforced by you posting in the development forum, and asking owen for a seperate forum.
Under that assumption, I tried to tell you what the next steps would be in that case. I agree with you I was pushing you as leader, because in my view, you are the person most acquainted with the whole idea, and understand best how to begin (it is also common practice here).

I know I cannot control how you spend your time, and I have no desire to do so.

getting the idea from my brain to anyone else's was for me the project. Everything else is icing on the cake

If publishing the idea was the end of the project for you, then I congratulate you with your achievement. A nice piece of work.

(for the next time) However, in that case, please don't give us mixed messages:

• Post in the suggestions forum rather than development, and be very explicit that you have published the final result "as-is" (you did that, but apparently not enough, or we would not have this discussion).
• Don't ask for help (the title of this thread ends with "(with some help!)").
• Don't start discussing BIG project leaders or ask for new forums.
• Don't hint that you might contribute.
• Don't say others should contribute.

Such messages make us hopelessly confused, and create unnecessary discussions as in this thread.



I wish you the best with your other and future projects, may they be as successful as this one.

Sincerely,
Albert

[SirXavius]

Thanks for your consideration, Albert. I hope you don't mind if i ignore your "advice" as this is a forum where ideas can be exchanged. My goal was simply to put it out for consideration, even though my time was constrained and my interest was waning. I did not whip this up in a few weeks; it took nearly a year just to get to a working document, backed up with the experience of knowing what can and can't be done with the current code.

Then i sought the help of forum members i respected and who tended to be constructive rather than negative with their critiques. This was done to understand the feasibility of my vision. After a few more months gleaning the inspiration, i finally created a series of threads to make work on the project easier. After consulting with Owen, he was reluctant to set up my own section until there was enough interest, but accepted the solution of several threads (each with the proper heading to let readers know the discussion was about the mod).

Shortly after posting everything, petern, without asking anyone, decided to combine the threads all in one, destroying the links and the intention i had, shoving everything into one thread that was sure to become convoluted and confusing. It was then that my interest really trook a nosedive. So yes, admittedly i was more gung-ho about seeing this thru, but people here have a tendency to drag ideas down rather than explore them positively. Unfortunately too much of this attitude is within the group of moderators, who should be furthering good ideas rather than wasting their time berating people for perceived "sins".

But it is what it is. Now other things have grabbed my interest, but i'm sure they wouldn't have if the idea had been treated differently some moderators (prob'ly a bit too crybaby-ish, but oh well). Until i come back around to it, i'm considering this idea on the shelf for later development, unless someone else would like to begin seeing it happen. But i must halt myself from "defending" my position, as i think i've been pretty clear.

Thanks for consideration from all of you, and especially to Geek Too for making the only REAL contribution to this idea!

[Eddi]

as this is a forum where ideas can be exchanged.

well, technically, this is the forum, where implementations can be exchanged. for ideas, the suggestions forum is the appropriate place.

if you posted there, you would have made it clear that you are not working on any kind of implementation, and the responses would have been a lot less aggressive.