FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

[2007Alain2007]

Will it be possible that the Industrys are together at the same time becuse if you use years that they close and open there might be a problem as the game gos on so it might be easyer for you guys not use years for closing

I do love the idea were you open up new industrys as the game gos on but as long as the old ones are still on the map and avaible to use and build

and i hope to see this work for you and us lot to enjoy playing

[andythenorth]

@ the general points about ECS - thanks. Michael explained to me some time ago about the difference between the definition of ECS, and the implementation by George. This set has been designed with that information in mind.

FIRS will stick to existing ECS cargo definitions where they exist, and we'll use appropriate labels where new cargos are needed. I see no reason why these wouldn't be added to the list of ECS labels on the TTDPatch wiki.

cheers,

Andy

[michael blunck]

[...] we'll use appropriate labels where new cargos are needed. I see no reason why these wouldn't be added to the list of ECS labels on the TTDPatch wiki.

ECS´s list of cargoes is complete, i.e. 32 cargoes.

regards
Michael

[Eddi]

maybe it's time for a cargotype pool

[Benny]

Sounds like a nice project. *My posts*

[Zephyris]

Wow, you have concept art! I would love to get involved, especially if you like the openGFX style...

[andythenorth]

ECS´s list of cargoes is complete, i.e. 32 cargoes.

Have I conflated the specifics of ECS with the general description of cargo labels? Feel free to disambiguate my terminology if I'm wrong - I was referring to the list of 60 labels here: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=CargoTypes
My intention is that we would use labels from that list where appropriate, and add to that list where necessary. I am not 100% happy with my own knowledge of cargos yet, and searching has led me to several confusing and inconclusive debates about the best way to proceed. If anyone wants to advise (or help us code), that would be wonderful

[michael blunck]

I was referring to the list of 60 labels here: [...]

You may define as lot different cargo labels as you´d be able to specify in the four-byte entries of a Cargo Translation Table. However, there are only 32 cargo bits available.

regards
Michael

[andythenorth]

You may define as lot different cargo labels as you´d be able to specify in the four-byte entries of a Cargo Translation Table. However, there are only 32 cargo bits available.

Pretty certain that's not a problem. We only require 30 cargo bits. I designed the set to allow for the 32 bit limitation, with 1 bit free for regearing, and 1 spare for future needs (in case we need to add an important cargo, or in case the author of a major vehicle set has some need for the bit as Pikka does with regearing).

cheers,

Andy

[andythenorth]

Will it be possible that the Industrys are together at the same time becuse if you use years that they close and open there might be a problem as the game gos on so it might be easyer for you guys not use years for closing

Certain kinds of industry *will* begin to close after a certain date. For example cheese shops might start closing after 1935. (there are no cheese shops in the set, but it's an example, and some of you may understand the reference. There is of course no cheese in the cheese shop).

Not all cheese shops will close at once in 1935, there will be some randomness to it, but in any particular month after 1935 there will be a very strong chance of a particular cheese shop closing.

If some players don't like this behaviour, they will be able to decode the grf, change the behaviour to their taste, and re-encode the grf; they will even be able to release it as long as they comply with the terms of the GPL

cheers,

Andy

[andythenorth]

I would love to get involved, especially if you like the openGFX style...

I do like the openGFX style, but I do *prefer* the original TTD style. It's a bit crisper where openGFX is a little more pastel. I hope you don't mind me saying that - I am under the impression that it's a deliberate style choice with openGFX

I am planning to draw in a style pretty similar to existing TTD industries, and in a way that will 100% fit in with the ISR set. However FooBar is also involved, and we haven't actually discussed this much yet or drawn anything that would form a 'set style' .

I think it's only a matter of details about shading and contrast. I guess me and FooBar need to draw something and see where we go with that!

cheers,

Andy

[andythenorth]

Dan MacK has some graphics drawn which I've asked permission to use.
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... 2&start=20

Also, a few more sketches. Textile Mill, Windmill, Dairy, Carpenters' Shop.

sketch_2.jpg (165.9 KiB) Viewed 4171 times

[FooBar]

I think the biggest difference between OpenGFX and plain TTD is the type of texture used. The textures used for OpenGFX are very 'noisy', where the TTD textures are a lot more cleaner. If you can draw one, you should be able to draw the other just by using a different type of texture to, welll, texture your buildings.

As a proper Dutchman, I probably should draw the windmill. And then add some wooden shoes and tulips at the side.

[CommanderZ]

FIRS will start in medieval times?

EDIT:

What about pushing it even further...I mean introducing industries like Reed gatherers and Papyrus makers from Pharaoh?

EDIT2:

...and the only road vehicles available would be a guy with wheelbarrow and cargo mule (or donkey or camel)

[FooBar]

FIRS will start in medieval times?

The set will start around 1800-ish. Ofcourse you will be able to start earlier, but you will not get any new industries until around 1800-ish.

Around that time you will be able to bring coal and iron to the blacksmith

[CommanderZ]

Do you plan to post some cargo schemes in near future? I'm getting really excited about this

[Timitry]

Yes, cargo schemes would be cool

One thing to consider for you, if the first industries will be available at around 1800:
The vehicles of those time periods can not carry that much goods and are rather slow, while in the modern times, vehicles are quite fast and can carry a lot.
I think the industry production should somewhat be based on that... It's easy to service a coal mine with a production of 100 tons in the year 2000 with 3 trains and make a lot of money with it, but in 1800 you would probably need about 7 trains or 20 road vehicles for that, and it kind of destroys the "flair" of playing early if there are collons of vehicles moving between a single coal mine and a powerplant...
One should consider that a coal mine today might produce tons of coal per day, with high-tech machines and stuff, but in 1800, most if not all of the work had to be done "by hand", and as so the production was probably very low.

My suggestion would be that industries in the early times do not produce that much cargo, let's say a production of 40 tons/month is normal, the maximum for a really good serviced industry would be about 80-100 tons, and a low production would be 10-20 tons. A horse-drawn carriage could maybe carry 10-20 tons, and would be very slow. Due to coal being a non-expirable cargo, it would be still be paid quite good, even when transported over greater distances. (all the numbers aren't really thought through, just some quick numbers)
For cargos like food, you wouldn't be able to transport it over great distances at that time, but rather to the closest town, else you would get almost no money, because you would need a long time to transport it further, in which the food would lose a lot of its value...

This would probably increase the fun of playing early a lot, and make the game a bit more strategical!
I don't know if all that's possible, just think about it, and if you don't like it, just forget it

[planetmaker]

Yes, cargo schemes would be cool

Hehe. Yes indeed, I'm curious myself But then we all would start suggestion with the best of our intentions on how to modify it

The vehicles of those time periods can not carry that much goods and are rather slow, while in the modern times, vehicles are quite fast and can carry a lot.
I think the industry production should somewhat be based on that

Indeed. I do consider that a good proposal. And if my feable grasp of newgrf coding serves me well, it is possible to implement.

Regards,
pm

[Eddi]

i consider it a very important feature of an early industry set to balance the production to the capacity of the vehicles. but i might even get lower than an average of 40, then possibly with multiple industries closer together. it should be possible to get enough industries per town that you can set up a local cargo transport network with a few horse carriages. and managing long distance transports via ships and canals.

even in later times, up to like 1960, there should be small (as in 1 tile) industries with low production and low stockpile sizes, that are suitible to be serviced by a small (mixed train) branch line. later, the small industries get a higher closing chance, so the branch lines subsequently get obsolete.

the cargo schemes should also vary slightly between times. for example it is useless to provide "express" cargo in the early years. the earlier the year, the less influence the speed must have on the profitability of the transport service, meaning the focus should be on getting the cargo to arrive at all. also, long distance transport should not be the focus, rather a closely connected local service.

[andythenorth]

even in later times, up to like 1960, there should be small (as in 1 tile) industries with low production and low stockpile sizes, that are suitible to be serviced by a small (mixed train) branch line. later, the small industries get a higher closing chance, so the branch lines subsequently get obsolete.

I have been thinking that for certain industries, production should be tied a little more to the physical size of the industry (in tiles), and also that there should be larger and more productive industries in later years compared to earlier years. I think it's possible within the newgrf spec to check which industry layout is being used, but I would need to confirm that.

I think it would also be possible to have industry graphics that change, so that early coal mines are different to later deep mines, which are different again to large open pit mines. Do bear in mind that all of this creates a lot of work for us in drawing, code and testing though, so it might not all happen. It will be better to have a good enough set that is 100% done than an amazing set which is only 50% done.

By the way, I have exactly the same dislike for putting 50 horse wagons onto a route in 1830; matching capacities to vehicles is a good intention, but players need to be able to also make money

I think we (the set authors) are open to discussing this stuff in public, so feel free to make suggestions, but we'll also feel free to ignore them