High Speed Two

[Kevo00]

Britain is exactly the right shape for high speed rail, and the basic infrastructure is already there in most cases.

Two main lines following loosely
cornwall-birmingham-manchester/liverpool-lancaster-carlisle-glasgow
and
(Europe)-london-stevenage-peterborough-york-newcastle-edinburgh-aberdeen

Essentially, the current east and west coast main lines upgraded. Minimum re-routing would be needed.

So building a route London-Birmingham-Manchester wouldn't be an immediate priority then? Those are the three main population centres in England and likely to be the most viable route. I really don't think Cornwall-Birmingham would be viable as an HSL, better to just get some longer trains on the normal line there.

Not sure what the lines on that map are meant to be, but I just love the idea of an Inverness - Fort William HSL, on a route where demand was so high that the railway line was never completed, and the next nearest thing, Inverness - Kyle of Localsh is so unprofitable it would be cheaper to fly everyone to their destinations by helicopter.

[Born Acorn]

It was unrealistic to begin with, and looks unrealistic now it's been pooh-poohed, but I would love UK Ultraspeed to come to fruition.

If only because I want to have something in this country to be proud of. Standard high speed lines are so 70's.

[John]

MASSIVE TOPIC DIG


But with a reason: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8221540.stm

Network Rail has proposed a new £34bn ($55bn) high-speed railway line linking Scotland and London by 2030.
The line will go via Birmingham and Manchester, getting passengers from Glasgow to London in just two hours and 16 minutes, the rail firm said.

[Kevo00]

Not really surprising, is it?

Now the problem of how to get an HSL to a location in Birmingham that a lot of people will use and is relatively close to New Street and Moor Street without knocking down half the city...

Same problem for Manchester. But yes, its the best route. Shame we just spent the money we could have spent on this 'upgrading' the WCML.

[JamieLei]

Now the problem of how to get an HSL to a location in Birmingham that a lot of people will use and is relatively close to New Street and Moor Street without knocking down half the city....

Run it up the Leamington to Birmingham direct line. It was originally 4-tracks, now 2. Piece of cake, plus most of the bridges and viaducts are still in place. Expand Moor Street to something a bit more substantial or build something in the wasteland where they were planning on building Birmingham Grand Central

I don't think it's gonna be difficult, but then Dave will probably be more aware of how easy it will be to restore the line

[Ameecher]

The fact that bridges remain in place is probably more of a hinderance than a help. They will be shot and also listed meaning a crap load of money will need to be invested just to make them good for service again. Just tunnel in and make a New Street/Moor Street HS station underground. Not all underground stations are like Sunderland as evidenced by Canary Wharf tube and Berlin Hauptbahnhof.

[beeb375]

Now, if this is a brand new line, what's stopping them from building it to the Berne Gauge and having double deck cars and the like? In fact, why didn't they do that with HS1 (or did they?), the Channel Tunnel must have a massive loading guage to get the Shuttle wagons in surely?

[JamieLei]

Now, if this is a brand new line, what's stopping them from building it to the Berne Gauge and having double deck cars and the like? In fact, why didn't they do that with HS1 (or did they?), the Channel Tunnel must have a massive loading guage to get the Shuttle wagons in surely?

It will be built to European Loading Gague as far as I'm aware

The fact that bridges remain in place is probably more of a hinderance than a help. They will be shot and also listed meaning a crap load of money will need to be invested just to make them good for service again. Just tunnel in and make a New Street/Moor Street HS station underground. Not all underground stations are like Sunderland as evidenced by Canary Wharf tube and Berlin Hauptbahnhof.

Tunneling is extremely expensive and the government doesn't have nearly enough money to to build an underground station without disturbing what's above. I highly doubt they'll tunnel underneath Moor Street and New Street. Canary Wharf was able to be built because they just dug a massive hole in the ground right down to track level, then put walkways above; there's no chance of that happening apart from at the Curzon Street.

[John]

Run it up the Leamington to Birmingham direct line. It was originally 4-tracks, now 2. Piece of cake, plus most of the bridges and viaducts are still in place. Expand Moor Street to something a bit more substantial or build something in the wasteland where they were planning on building Birmingham Grand Central

I don't think it's gonna be difficult, but then Dave will probably be more aware of how easy it will be to restore the line

If the land is still owned then it should be possible.

If they are building it into St Pancras, one would hope they too build it to European gauge.

Which of course presents additional problems. Bridges over the line left in place will be too low - although it may be possible to just dig the track bed down.

And the joys of listed viaducts etc. as Ameecher hinted at. Although, one wonders if the government spends £34 billion on it, if the listings might just vanish...

[John]

DOUBLE POST, LIKE OMG.

Just found some Network Rail links from the BBC


A rather bizarre CGI Video of HSL2.
Can only describe it as pointless and perhaps a waste of money..

The Route Map


Having to reverse in Birmingham and by the looks of it no links from Liverpool to the north (or Edinburgh-Glasgow).

I assume it won't be the case, but its strange to advertise it as such...

Also, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8222032.stm
Some people seem highly pleased, others seem to be displaying the typical British moan at everything...

[Born Acorn]

The fact that bridges remain in place is probably more of a hinderance than a help. They will be shot and also listed meaning a crap load of money will need to be invested just to make them good for service again.

Is shoring up an existing structure more expensive than a brand new one? I would have thought it easier if the permission and planning was already made available in Acts of Parliament made over a hundred years ago. Sufficient amounts of Shotcrete, rockbolting, and repointing brickwork with modern equivalents should be effective enough.

[Ameecher]

Depends how knackered they are and the speeds of the trains involved on the line. Last thing you want is a hundred year old bridge ruining your nice new £34bn railway line because trainds have to trundle over it at half speed because the structure can't handle the braking forces.

[Kevo00]

Why isn't Birmingham proposed as a through station? That would seem like a configuration very likely to slow down the line, and you can bet there will be more north-London services than north-Birmingham services, thus discouraging north-Birmingham journeys.

As for Edin and Glasgow, wouldn't it be as well to tip out at Carstairs, or just build the Glasgow branch to save the expense of building one route to each? Its not as though Carstairs to Edin is that busy as far as I'm aware...

Also interesting that the oft proposed Heathrow link is absent...

Anyway I'm pretty sure we won't end up with a Japan style totally isolated high speed system as this diagram would suggest.

[Ameecher]

The Japanese system is partly isolated due to the fact that their "standard" guage is narrower than that of the Shinkansen. There are other reasons why it is isolated though, of course.

[Ploes]

Anyone been able to find a map with more information the route itself?

Even living closer to Glasgow and Edinburgh, I'd sooner see the line carry on up to Aberdeen and drop the Glasgow spur.
Spend a bit of money on the current Glasgow to Edinburgh service and it wouldn't even be needed to much.
Better still, have a Prestwick Airport, Glasgow Airport, Glasgow Central Low Level, Edinburgh Airport, Edinburgh Haymarket service.
I could keep going.....

[John]

Anyone been able to find a map with more information the route itself?

The network rail press release is at http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/5892.aspx

However, this is a much more proof on concept type press release.

The documents looked at all sort of different routes (east coast, west coast). From this it was decided which provided the best value for money. This is why Birmingham isn't a through station, but a branch - like many other stations.

Also interesting that the oft proposed Heathrow link is absent...

Heathrow gets looked at in some detail - either as a through station before a London terminus, or a separate branch from the London terminus (Note: the terminus is being described as easily accessible to St Pancras, for eurostar connections etc.). It would add 15 minutes to all journeys into london if it was a through station, and from that prospective it was decided to be too expensive. However it is anticipated a branch would pay for itself 1.6 times in 60 years and as such would be worthwhile building (especially given increased congestion in the future etc. etc.).

Note the document also hinted at future HSLs (for example Leeds being excluded amongst other things as it would significantly weaken the case for a east coast line). A london - bristol/wales line was also analysed.

All in all, they have just said which cities they would connect, how they would connect them (branch or main line) and why. Nothing more.

[JamieLei]

Why isn't Birmingham proposed as a through station? That would seem like a configuration very likely to slow down the line, and you can bet there will be more north-London services than north-Birmingham services, thus discouraging north-Birmingham journeys.

I can't imagine any way of getting the line out of Birmingham going North! It isn't feasable, and hence the loop-back

As for Edin and Glasgow, wouldn't it be as well to tip out at Carstairs, or just build the Glasgow branch to save the expense of building one route to each? Its not as though Carstairs to Edin is that busy as far as I'm aware...

It's not necessary the Carstairs to Edinburgh traffic flow that's justifying it, it's the London to Edinburgh flow, most of which should shift over onto HS2.

Anyway I'm pretty sure we won't end up with a Japan style totally isolated high speed system as this diagram would suggest.

Hmmm - I'd imagine that we'd probably use existing lines to get into City Centres (except for Birmingham) with sufficient gauge widenings to allow European gauge

[Kevo00]

Anyone been able to find a map with more information the route itself?

Even living closer to Glasgow and Edinburgh, I'd sooner see the line carry on up to Aberdeen and drop the Glasgow spur.
Spend a bit of money on the current Glasgow to Edinburgh service and it wouldn't even be needed to much.
Better still, have a Prestwick Airport, Glasgow Airport, Glasgow Central Low Level, Edinburgh Airport, Edinburgh Haymarket service.
I could keep going.....

An Aberdeen extension would be unlikely to be worthwhile, and would probably have to share with the existing route on its way through Dundee...unless they built it round the back of Dundee. Better would be to electrify and comprehensively upgrade either the Motherwell - Stirling - Perth route or the Fife route, to take the HSL trains, although either would require bottlenecks removed like the single track Tay crossing at Perth and the bridge over the lagoon at Montrose. Even then the gains might be marginal, although the drunken oil workers are a substantial source of traffic.

I believe Glasgow Airport - Glasgow - Edinburgh Airport - Edinburgh then south is part of the UK Ultraspeed proposal, funnily enough...

[Kevo00]

Hmmm - I'd imagine that we'd probably use existing lines to get into City Centres (except for Birmingham) with sufficient gauge widenings to allow European gauge

Apologies for the double post, but wouldn't this significantly slow down services and effectively negate the value of the HSL? Surely a 16 carriage HS2 train snaking its way into any of the existing termini would cause substantial capacity problems and negate the new use of the WCML as a long distance/regional commuter route. Hard to imagine the HS2 trains getting stuck behind every SPT stopping train on the Argyle line on their way into Glasgow Central.

Also if London-Edin is transferred to HS2, I wonder what that would mean for ECML north of Newcastle? Downgrading, de-electrification, perhaps even total closure between Morpeth and Dunbar?

[JamieLei]

Apologies for the double post, but wouldn't this significantly slow down services and effectively negate the value of the HSL? Surely a 16 carriage HS2 train snaking its way into any of the existing termini would cause substantial capacity problems and negate the new use of the WCML as a long distance/regional commuter route. Hard to imagine the HS2 trains getting stuck behind every SPT stopping train on the Argyle line on their way into Glasgow Central.

Also if London-Edin is transferred to HS2, I wonder what that would mean for ECML north of Newcastle? Downgrading, de-electrification, perhaps even total closure between Morpeth and Dunbar?

Aparently it's how the French did it. Plus the majority of speed increases are to be had on long distances, since trains will already be crawling round station entrances on dedicated lines.

There's significant demand on CrossCountry, enough to warrant HSTs going north of Newcastle. I doubt the ECML would be shut or de-electrified, but there would be a reduction in services.