BR Set [WIP][EXPERIENCED AND NEW ARTISTS WANTED!]

[EXTspotter]

So are all of mine.

[andythenorth]

I've been around the internets long enough that I should know better than to get involved in someone else's argument, but....

...the whole discussion above looks like raving crazy talk. Properly batsh*t destructive crazy. How can you all fall out so badly over tiny collections of pixels?

Want my advice? (and you probably don't, but you get it at no charge, unless you'd like to make a donation):
- if you're an artist, GPL your work. Yes it's not entirely appropriate for graphics. But do it anyway, because it's the best we've got. But give your work out freely, stop worrying about being exploited. Get a repo from the openttd coop guys, and give your work away freely. Post it here for the kudos, and give it away freely. We do it for fun, remember?

- if you're authoring a set, GPL your work. It's entirely appropriate for newgrf, and it's the best we've got. If it's your set, insist on final say: Benevolent Dictator isn't the only route, but it's proven to work well for newgrf projects. Give your work out freely, stop worrying about being exploited. Get a repo from the openttd coop guys, and give your work away freely. Post nightlies here for the kudos, and the bug reports, and give it away freely. We do it for fun, remember?

Ach it's just my 2p. If anyone wants a tiresome forum nitpick about it, I can play that game too, but dammit that's nowhere near as fun as playing TTD.

cheers,

Andy

[audigex]

Andy, it's all been taken far too personally - it's very unfortunate, but that's the way they appear to want to go.

I think, somewhere along the way, certain people forgot the meaning of the word "community"

[Beardie]

Well i pull my graphics out and i give them to Doorslammer to use at his will. I don;t see any point for painting graphics knowing it may take another 6 years to code them.

[jonty-comp]

Perhaps it's just British people? Someone in Australia managed to make an excellent British Railways set, but people from Britain have spent the last ten years or so falling out and never getting anything done. I've already told Doorslammer to start a "Brrr!" set and get it finished by himself in a month.

[Beardie]

Perhaps it's just British people? Someone in Australia managed to make an excellent British Railways set, but people from Britain have spent the last ten years or so falling out and never getting anything done. I've already told Doorslammer to start a "Brrr!" set and get it finished by himself in a month.

And i think most of us are with Doorslammer on this.

[Ameecher]

Well i pull my graphics out and i give them to Doorslammer to use at his will. I don;t see any point for painting graphics knowing it may take another 6 years to code them.

I tried to stay out of this but without sprites it will take 6 years won't it. Catch 22 that one. Won't draw because there isn't any coding, won't code because there isn't any sprites.

[krtaylor]

And this... is why the British set, while being the oldest of the major TTD sets and the first one begun, is also the least far along and the least likely ever to see the light of day. Good grief, guys, who gives a rip about any of the individual sprites, or the specific code? A TTD set is useful as a complete set, or not at all. You cannot play football singly, it would be ridiculous - but that's what these preposterous IP-licensing arguments demand.

For myself, I hope some enterprising coder trawls through the backfiles, collects all the sprites that have ever been drawn, and codes them completely regardless of permission - while of course properly documenting who drew what and giving full credit to each artist in the Readme. I dare say the finally-completed set would be welcomed, and anyone who didn't like it could just stuff it. What are you going to do, sue each other? It's not like there's any money at stake here, all that's available is credit, which is worthless for an unplayable and useless pile of bits which is all you have now. Sheesh, talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[DaleStan]

What are you going to do, sue each other? It's not like there's any money at stake here

Which you know full well has nothing to do with the validity of a copyright infringement suit.

[andythenorth]

For myself, I hope some enterprising coder trawls through the backfiles, collects all the sprites that have ever been drawn, and codes them completely regardless of permission [...snip...] What are you going to do, sue each other?

Maybe not sue, but how about:
- deluge forum moderators with PMs demanding removal of copyright infringing sprites / code from the forums?
- ditto grf-crawler?
- be a right pain in the arse on forums / IRC?

Plus, set couldn't be used on BaNaNaS, or in OpenTTD Coop etc.

All of which is tiresome, and easily solved by the GPL - apply once daily, if symptoms persist, stop using this product...

But yes, otherwise I agree with you.

[Ameecher]

For myself, I hope some enterprising coder trawls through the backfiles, collects all the sprites that have ever been drawn, and codes them completely regardless of permission - while of course properly documenting who drew what and giving full credit to each artist in the Readme. I dare say the finally-completed set would be welcomed, and anyone who didn't like it could just stuff it. What are you going to do, sue each other? It's not like there's any money at stake here, all that's available is credit, which is worthless for an unplayable and useless pile of bits which is all you have now. Sheesh, talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Off you go then.


Oh wait.

[welshdragon]

Somebody's done that.... Check the Openttd Graphics forum

[Ammler]

I thought about suggesting the forum team to add a general license to the forum rules, so everything (except final binaries/grfs) posted here is automatically GPL, if not mentioned something else. As mostly that is the case anyway for the forums projects like ISR, USSet, JapanSet etc...

Well, thanks to OpenGFX, some uf us are very sensible to warn quite early about using a license.

[orudge]

I thought about suggesting the forum team to add a general license to the forum rules, so everything (except final binaries/grfs) posted here is automatically GPL, if not mentioned something else.

I don't believe there's any way that could legally work. An author has to release his or her work under a specific licence, I can't force one. I wouldn't want to force one, either.

[audigex]

I've been trying to persuade people to release their stuff under the GPL - a few have already, some I have no idea what's going on (whether they withdrew from the set or released GPL, some are confusing), and a few we can't get hold of.

Some other notes - the set is now leaderless again (leanden just quit), and half the group has decided they want to break away and start another set.

Fun, eh?

[krtaylor]

As mostly that is the case anyway for the forums projects like ISR, USSet, JapanSet etc...
Well, thanks to OpenGFX, some uf us are very sensible to warn quite early about using a license.

Yeah. Lesson learned - and I guess the BRset was unlucky because it was the very first, before a lot of these lessons were learned. We should put this as #1 on the "If you want to start a set..." sticky.

"When you announce a new set, before you get one single sprite, state clearly and plainly that all graphics submitted and all work done WILL be GPL - and if someone doesn't like it, their help isn't wanted. Otherwise, the set will never be completed and everyone's work will be wasted."

[Purno]

Any artwork I drew is GPL now. Though it's not much, I did draw a few British trains. As GPL states, everyone's allowed to use my artwork for any set.

If you want to re-start on a set, just gather some sprites you can use (and even if you can't draw or code, you can still gather for information. Browse through the whole topic to hunt down sprites. I did the same for the Dutch set once).

Then, start to code. GRFmaker is an awesome tool for a total code-newbie. It's pretty easy to understand once you seriously try it out. Though it doesn't have the most advanced features, it can do a whole lot. The first released version of the Dutch Trainset is made with GRFmaker, and certainly got quite some features considering that version wasn't coded by NFO experts. Once you got a start, you can ask more people if you can add their artwork, and probably artists will contribute something.

Posting graphics at the forums is a good thing. Every artwork I made was always posted at the forums. Everything for the Dutch Trainset what I drew, is still in that topic. Might take some time to browse through the 100s of pages, but you will find it. Though we had some doubt if people would abuse the sprites to create their own set, that thing never happened. (I guess since anyone who could code, would rather join the team than to work alone)

It looks like there's enough people who are willing to contribute to some sort of British trainset. That's a thing that not every set has. The Dutch Trainset, for example, has been looking for a coder for years. We had plenty of artists, but no-one sticking long enough to code till the finish. Till the time I got tired of it and tried GRFmaker, and got the first major part of the Dutch Trainset code up, which DJ Nekkid is now improving (at least we got a base to work on now). Hyronymus has tried to code too, though he didn't get that far (but he tried). Hyronymus has tried to draw too, though he didn't get that far either (but he tried). And, Hyronymus did a damn fine job with getting everything organized, making a tracking table, hunting photographs of ancient trains I never heard of, and gathering stats. Things that the artists and coders didn't want, or couldn't do. Things that everyone without any coding or drawing skills can do.

I don't know exactly what happened, but come'on guys. You got a lot of damn good sprites, you got a coder (and if you don't, boot up GRFmaker for a start). Gather sprites, code them. Release it. Gather more sprites, code them. Release it. And you will be getting your British Set!

[Dave]

f*** pathetic. The lot of you.

No one stopped you from coding your own work and yet you STILL go on saying "no one would code it for me".

There's a GRF Maker. Do it yourself.

Complete gangfuck of mistakes from all parties and we're back to square one.

Oh. And as an aside, do NOT rip off ANY graphics that may have been in this set in your new BROS without the EXPRESSED permission of the original author.

[Dave]

Perhaps it's just British people? Someone in Australia managed to make an excellent British Railways set, but people from Britain have spent the last ten years or so falling out and never getting anything done.

For the record, we've probably got as many sprites/vehicles as Pikka has in the UKRS, but since we were going for "comprehensive"...

[Purno]

Oh. And as an aside, do NOT rip off ANY graphics that may have been in this set in your new BROS without the EXPRESSED permission of the original author.

Asking for permission is something that always need to be done.
Unless the license already gives you permission automatically, I guess. Can't hurt to ask anyways.

Perhaps it's just British people? Someone in Australia managed to make an excellent British Railways set, but people from Britain have spent the last ten years or so falling out and never getting anything done.

For the record, we've probably got as many sprites/vehicles as Pikka has in the UKRS, but since we were going for "comprehensive"...

The more people working on a set, the more different opinions you will have. Working alone gives you the perfect set you wished for without any disagreements. However, teams still should be able to make comrpomises. We did it with the Dutch Set too. Especially since OpenTTD basicly got an unlimited amount of vehicle IDs, any vehicle could be added. (If you don't like it, you don't have to buy it ingame). With parameters even more functions could be enabled/disabled.

And, releasing half a set will get you halfway, while trying to get a full set released might get you nowhere.