New trams sets and RV IDs for trams

[Hyronymus]

I get the idea there are 2 preferences are being mistaken to be 1 and the same:

- krtaylor suggest keeping American, European and other tram ID's apart
- George suggest to use 16 ID's

I personally don't see a desire for the first option. It would be the same as asking makers of national railroadsets to leave space for other nations' railroadsets. If a player chooses to use one national set that player should accept that it will keep him from using another national set. Up till now that has been widely accepted as normal - even though there are more train ID's than RV ID's - so I wonder if we should change this concept for trams (someone correct me if I didn't get the gist).

The second suggestion isn't easy to stick to either. George, you told Bastiaan to use a livery override for a 2 and 3-axle Amsterdam tram. That's noly a possibility if the 2 and 3-axle trams are from the same basic type. It would be silly otherwise.

[krtaylor]

No, you have completely misunderstood my argument. Obviously all trams will share the same IDs, and generally you would use only one tram set at a time.

However, AFAIK, George has combined ALL his Long Vehicles into one massive GRF. In the case of cargo vehicles, I agree with that, since at least the ones he has are fairly generally similar all over the world. In the case of the busses, that is not really so; many of them are usually found only in one limited geographical location. So, I am suggesting that the busses should be in their own GRF, controlled by a parameter denoting whether you want the North American, Western European, or Eastern European set. Perhaps someday there would also be an Asian set. Some vehicles might overlap between regions a little, but in general they wouldn't. This would have the effect of fewer busses in any one game, but different ones based on what geographic area you are wanting to play with, which would make it more likely that you would actually try all the different busses at one time or another. Also, this would reduce the number of IDs uses, thus allowing more for something else, such as trams.

[Hyronymus]

Ah, OK. I totally agree with that for the busses solution .

[Snail]

I think it is a very sensible solution.

Another idea would be to have a parameter that determines which models to be linked with the buses IDs. This way, we could fill all the buses' slots with models from that region, thus without having a limited number of buses in each game. In other words, each ID would be occupied by three models, and the parameter would determine which model would actually show up in the game.
This would also allow a very high number of buses to be represented. Even focusing on "Western European" buses, for instance, we would need lots of IDs, to include models from different countries (Britain, Germany, France, Italy...)
Of course it could be extended to trams, and maybe trucks, too...

[krtaylor]

Actually that is exactly what I was trying to propose, except I must have put it badly. So we are in agreement.

It might be necessary to think things through with a little care, though. Certain busses (e.g. Mercedes) are pretty much available everywhere in the world, so would need an ID that worked regardless. Other busses would be available in more than one place but not everywhere (e.g. some European bus that would be for both Western Europe and Eastern Europe, but not North America or Asia. I think the basic idea is sound though, But the devil is in the details.

[Hyronymus]

Instead of working with parameters I thought you can also skip sprites upon the detection of a GRF ID. Not sure though, perhaps a patch dev can help me out here.

[George]

Instead of working with parameters I thought you can also skip sprites upon the detection of a GRF ID. Not sure though, perhaps a patch dev can help me out here.

Yes, but what ID?

I also don't like the idea of parameters, because they are not stored in the save, can not be viewed or changed in game. Previously, when there were several files that could be easily done with different GRFIDs. But now there is only one set and only one ID.

So, I do not see a good solution now.

As for Trams, I hope that fixing (at least in first review) IDs for trams (including the rule of expanding the list of IDs) is a good approach in regulating the trams development.

Could someone give convincing arguments now to choose other IDs?

From my side I'll make a new research for ID usage for buses. I suppose I'd require about 48 IDs for buses for 3 parallel "regional" subsets. That is 23 IDs for trams. Hope it is enough. As for buses, I'll use landscape flag as condition for subset selection (As I wrote, I do not know any good way to choose). I'll use:
Temperate for West Europe subset
Arctic for East Europe subset
Tropic for North America subset
May be Toyland for right-side buses, can be japan set in the future.
I'll do the coding tomorrow. If someone would like to suggest the other schema, please let me know ASAP.

[Snail]

The only thing I feel like suggesting, George, is to keep at least three reserved IDs for pre-1955 Western European buses. Right now the earliest model is the Mercedes O6600 and we'll need at least three buses prior to that (one for the '20's, one for the '30's and one for the '40's). Of course, some more would be nice, but this would be the minimum if you fall short on IDs.
I could suggest some models with the relative drawings if you like.

[krtaylor]

I think your plan is good, George, except that I don't think that automatically setting the region based on the climate is a good idea. For one thing, the US set works in all 3 regions. I think a parameter is much the better way to control it. Or you could issue three different bus GRF files, one for each regional set, and rig them so they will allow only one (the last one in your list) to work at a time.

[minime]

Why not make a bunch of pretty much empty GRF files, each with a different GRFID, that would be used to define the region?

eg.
GRFID A - North America
GRFID B - Western Europe
GRFID C - Eastern Europe
etc.

They could be coded to be mutually exclusive. That would provide you with a method to have the choice of region (unlike the parameter method) to be stored in the save game.
You would only detect which one is active, and activate your respective features.

Eventually other sets could use the same files, to provide unified themes.

May be Toyland for right-side buses, can be japan set in the future.

Perhaps you meant left-side or "busses that drive on the left side"? If not, then ignore the following...

Why not use the value "Vehicles drive on ... side" setting from TTD? I remember the LV GRF whining at me for having it set wrong (because that's what the damn game keeps defaulting to, although i have no desire to ever use it). If it can detect it and complain, i'm sure it could choose the vehicles to use based on that...

Regards,
minime

[krtaylor]

I'd say that mostly, you could choose different graphics based on the set vehicle side. Many busses come in both models, to serve the various markets.

[George]

I think your plan is good, George, except that I don't think that automatically setting the region based on the climate is a good idea.

Solution?
Parameters are not stored
YOU wanted all in one ID

For one thing, the US set works in all 3 regions. I think a parameter is much the better way to control it.

How can I test it when I open someones save? BAD solution. I should know the correct settings when I open the save, because the GRF should select, what vehicles to show. Landscape flag is stored in the save.

Or you could issue three different bus GRF files,

NO. You said so much about making all the GRFs in one, I shall not change it back unless LVv5

one for each regional set, and rig them so they will allow only one (the last one in your list) to work at a time.

That is also for trams and trolleybuses? You contradict yourself

Why not make a bunch of pretty much empty GRF files, each with a different GRFID, that would be used to define the region?

I can support this Idea, but what should I do if noone is loaded?

Eventually other sets could use the same files, to provide unified themes.

Who will do it?

May be Toyland for right-side buses, can be japan set in the future.

Perhaps you meant left-side or "busses that drive on the left side"? If not, then ignore the following...
Why not use the value "Vehicles drive on ... side" setting from TTD? I remember the LV GRF whining at me for having it set wrong (because that's what the damn game keeps defaulting to, although i have no desire to ever use it). If it can detect it and complain, i'm sure it could choose the vehicles to use based on that...

Becasue that means that I need to draww all the buses in both variants (doors on left and right). Because they can't be mirrored, that is a hard task that I do not want to do

I'd say that mostly, you could choose different graphics based on the set vehicle side. Many busses come in both models, to serve the various markets.

Who will draw them? I will not

[krtaylor]

If you do not want to draw left and right hand versions of all the busses, that's OK. Mostly they are so small that it is not so easy to see what side the doors are on unless you look closely.

Concerning combining all the vehicles, I had meant to combine all the trucks into one, as the busses already were combined. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

In other words, I like the way you have the trucks now, and the way you had the busses in the last version.

I understand your point about the parameter. So, it is probably better to have 3 separate bus GRFs, one for each region, and whichever is loaded last is the one you get. This way you can have them all in your GRF list, to support whatever saved games you may have, but you can control what you get in a new game by controlling which one is last.

[George]

Concerning combining all the vehicles, I had meant to combine all the trucks into one, as the busses already were combined. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

You said to put ALL the GRFs in one, that means buses too

In other words, I like the way you have the trucks now, and the way you had the busses in the last version. I understand your point about the parameter. So, it is probably better to have 3 separate bus GRFs, one for each region, and whichever is loaded last is the one you get.

With GRFs menu you get the possibility to activeate and disactivate GRFs. That means that the order does not matter here

This way you can have them all in your GRF list, to support whatever saved games you may have, but you can control what you get in a new game by controlling which one is last.

I think the idea of small reginal identifier (GRF) sounds better. As for now, I'll code them depending on landscape (noone suggested other landscapes, so Ill use the ones I suggested). Other variants would be coded later. Missing slots in regional subsets would be filled in with models from other subsets

[George]

I’ve made a new research on RVs IDs usage. As it was suggested, I’ve split the LV buses into 4 groups. Now I put groups into landscapes, but for every missing model of each group I’ve used a model from the other group.
Now, all the buses take 35 IDs (00h-22h). One ID in three years is reserved for them.
IDs 23h-32h (16 IDs) are reserved. They can be used for buses, trams or trolleybuses if they would be available.
IDs 33h-47h (21 IDs) are suggested for trams. One ID in five years is reserved for them.
IDs 48h-57h (16 IDs) are suggested for trucks. One ID in seven years is reserved for them.

[krtaylor]

This sounds like a good plan.