Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by Xander »

andythenorth wrote:I asked for possible theoretical implementations of a method for industries to 'prefer' cargo from nearby sources (see reasons in posts on page 2 or 3 of this thread).
Groovy - I read your whole post but knowing it's only a idea search rather than a recommendation to implement which, I'm sure you appreciate, 99% of "Suggestions" are, I'm cool now.

I stand with Anders on how to implement demand. I remember in the original TTD I would pounce on subsidies since, as you stated, the maps were much smaller so a 4x bonus would make a Lot of impact in your overall plans.

If I may, I'd also suggest my standard response to "realism" suggestions - just limit yourself. I appreciate this comes unstuck when playing multiplayer, but if you play single player then just make yourself a few limits. No more than 2 coal mines to a power plant, no more than x tiles travelled etc. etc. Just little things that force yourself to make the game that much harder/realistic. They also usually lend themselves brilliantly to screenshot threads so you can still share your accomplishments :)
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by SirXavius »

At the risk of DaleStanning this thread, i must respond point-by-point to anyone who seeks to stifle development of this game. :evil:
Xander wrote:Chris Sawyer is clearly an exceptional programmer and it would've been easily within him to make the cargo rates a variable and reward or punish players for charging too much or not enough.
1. He may have been but his word is not the FINAL word, especially in a world of open-source applications.
2. He may be exceptional, but he obviously took many shortcuts, as programmers of the 80s and 90s often did (concerned with game speed and RAM limitations). As evidence, i give you non-diagonal roads, wormhole tunnels, single-angle slopes, and a surface-only world map.
3. Being an exceptional programmer does not make you an exceptional game designer, altho i will concede that Lord Sawyer did a pretty damn good job with the game design. But obviously improvements were forthcoming, as evidenced by this vibrant community....
Xander wrote: If I want to play a game where you win or lose based on your business ability, I'd play Capitalism. If that's what you want, I recommend you do the same.
What about taking the best attributes of Capitalism and porting them to OUR favorite game? Let's think outside of the box. It's open-source and we have eager programmers and code-tweakers. Perhaps one day we'll have a choice of Ecoonomic models like we do Computer AIs.

Andy, i agree completely with your overview of gameplaying. It's all about fun, and fun usually means challenge (at least with computer games). Challenge is based mostly on reality, with a heavy dose of imagination. :wink:
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by belugas »

SirXavius wrote: As evidence, i give you ... wormhole tunnels...
Wrong. That has been brought to the community by Tron, while making the current bridge system.
SirXavius wrote:Challenge is based mostly on reality...
How.... Shock... I'm... opposed to that... it's blasphemy!!!
Challenge is simply a goal to overpass your limitations, been real or imaginary.
If you are not ready to work a bit for your ideas, it means they don't count much for you.
OpenTTD and Realism? Well... Here are a few thoughs on the matter.
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by ever »

Perhaps a graphic representation might make my proposal more understandable.

Image

I forgot to say that quantity is in units of cargo/month. This rewards expedient delivery

Now if this model is adopted Revenue is separated from Costs.

In the current model, distance modifies revenue which means the costs are explicitly and directly linked with revenue!

This is a disastrous set of affairs!

Now in my model, the closer a supplying industry is to a demanding industry the more advantageous it is for the player. Furthermore the more and more the player supplies per month the more and more he increases his revenue (up to the point of elasticity). So the player will work towards connecting even industries further away if the marginal cost of connecting them is lower than the marginal revenue gain. This is up to him to calculate and is fun doing so.

This doesn't only make industries themselves prefer those closer by, it makes the player prefer those industries which can produce him the most cargo and those to whom supplying the cargo costs the least and takes the least amount of time. Whether the greatest advantage is in an industry he finds far away or one he finds close by is the product of these factors. Distance has no relationship with revenue or cargo payment rates, rather it is up to the player to set prices and decide which routes to choose both short and long to make the most profit.

This means

A) He is rewarded the most for effecient and quick transport from nearby suppliers to nearby demanders
B) Also rewarded the exact same amount for efficient and quick transport for those suppliers far away if delivered in the same amount of time.
C) Most rewarded the most he supplies, which inevitably forces the player to supply from long and short routes alike, whereas in the current model high produce short routes are completely unfeasible for no reason at all.

Cargo payment rates are decided by the player in such a way where he tries to make the most profit possible while meeting the demand at that price.

As Andy mentioned much earlier, the game puts you in perspective of the transport company and accordingly transport companies take the costs of transport into account when setting prices, thus justifying the increased cargo payment rates over long distances.

Well if that's the case then let's put the player in the shoes of the transport company and allow him to set the cargo payment rates.

That's where the idea comes from and that's how it proposes to solve the dilemma.

Now, as a disclaimer, in case you don't understand why equilibrium price is the most advantageous then I ask you to consider two things.

One) What happens when the price is set too high?
Two) What happens when the price is set to low?

In answering these questions you will reach understanding.
Last edited by ever on 31 May 2009 02:19, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by ever »

AndersI wrote:There is already one source of 'demand' in the TTD world: Subsidies. Perhaps that concept could be augmented to allow for a more demand-driven game, but still very much TTD-style? No deep thoughts here, just an idea that struck me
There's more than one source.

As it stands all secondary and above industries as well as all towns have demands for certain things. For example all powerplants have demand for coal. All oil refineries have demand for oil. All towns have demand for passengers and so on.

The problem is they seem to have higher demands for those goods more far away.

lol I guess in ttd world exoticism the measure of subjective value where everyone is somehow in unanimous agreement that the more exotic a product is to them (even uniform products like oil) the more valuable it is.

This is so counter intuitive that its mind boggling how it ever got put in the game.
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by AndersI »

ever wrote:This is so counter intuitive that its mind boggling how it ever got put in the game.
I think you are completely missing my point. I was talking about a minor change in the existing game mechanics, not about re-designing the whole concept.

TTD is a Transport game, not an economics simulator. Live with it. It's not our problem to discuss with the industries why they purchase their goods from a certain (long distance) place. Maybe they got such a good deal on the price for the goods, that it pays (for them) even with our outrageous transport charges? The point is that they pay us to transport the goods. With my suggestion, the two worlds - transport and economics - would get a very tiny bit closer to each other, without throwing away the original game idea, without rewriting half the game.
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by andythenorth »

ever wrote:This is so counter intuitive that its mind boggling how it ever got put in the game.
Well, it's *less* of an issue in a 256x256 map :)

Plus, providing an implementation to solve the problem might have been demanding in terms of time (to code), and resource-demands (when running the game). And it was never a noticeable gameplay problem in 1996 (or in fact in 2007 ) - I used to spend most of my time trying to make useful signalling systems. The welcome and recent advent of PBS has knocked that on the head :)

There might be something in the subsidy suggestion. Again, I don't have this thought out coherently but:
- I'm not *simply* looking for all industries to *prefer* only their nearest supplier. I think that would be dull.
- In gameplay terms, it would probably be much *more* interesting to occasionally have to build a long and challenging route to move cargo from a preferred supplier.

If we had a finished method for knowing where cargo came from (such as cargo packets), I think we could look at moving this problem into the world of newgrf, which is probably where it belongs. I don't know if newgrf is 100% the right solution because really interesting gameplay probably needs a scenario scripting language, which is a whole other problem. However if we simply look at the economics of cargo acceptance by industries, that really does seem best handled by newgrf.

I don't yet know what else newgrf authors (like me) would need to get more control over the economic factors in gameplay, but I think that it would be useful to discuss. I could start a new thread for this, or suggestions here?
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by ever »

AndersI wrote:
ever wrote:This is so counter intuitive that its mind boggling how it ever got put in the game.
I think you are completely missing my point. I was talking about a minor change in the existing game mechanics, not about re-designing the whole concept.

TTD is a Transport game, not an economics simulator. Live with it. It's not our problem to discuss with the industries why they purchase their goods from a certain (long distance) place. Maybe they got such a good deal on the price for the goods, that it pays (for them) even with our outrageous transport charges? The point is that they pay us to transport the goods. With my suggestion, the two worlds - transport and economics - would get a very tiny bit closer to each other, without throwing away the original game idea, without rewriting half the game.
Did you even bother reading or understanding my suggestion?

I do not "discuss with the industries why they purchase their goods from a certain (long distance) place" In fact, I explicitly stated that my proposition was good cause it stays out of the dealings between industries, and its nothing even close to being an "economics simulator" of any kind

And my suggestion isn't about re-writing the game, in fact judging by the work in PBI it might be possible with a .grf but perhaps not.

The suggestion was let the player set how much he charges for cargo at a particular station, and have the quantity accepted by the station monthly based on that (the latter can be done via grfs not sure about the first part) . The more he charges the less is demanded.

i.e let the player charge how much he is paid for transporting the goods because it is a transport game

That's it.
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by SirXavius »

belugas wrote:
SirXavius wrote: As evidence, i give you ... wormhole tunnels...
Wrong. That has been brought to the community by Tron, while making the current bridge system.
I stand corrected. But it still doesn't negate my point. Thanks for agreeing with me on 90% of my points, belugas -- the respect is reciprocated. :wink:
AndersI wrote: TTD is a Transport game, not an economics simulator. Live with it. It's not our problem to discuss with the industries why they purchase their goods from a certain (long distance) place. Maybe they got such a good deal on the price for the goods, that it pays (for them) even with our outrageous transport charges? The point is that they pay us to transport the goods. With my suggestion, the two worlds - transport and economics - would get a very tiny bit closer to each other, without throwing away the original game idea, without rewriting half the game.
Who says we have to live with it? No one is advocating REPLACING the Transport game with an economic simulator, but merely tweaking the economic model the game uses. Not only that, if TTD was STRICTLY a Transport game-sim, we wouldn't be planting trees in order to boost town ratings, or figuring out where to build company HQs. Those have little to do with 'transporting'.

Perhaps if someone is interested in tweaking (or even overhauling) the code, the only thing that should be told them is "Make sure we can opt out," whether it moves us a "tiny bit closer" or "rewriting half the game."

Personally i'd like to see all of these implementations someday, and we have the choice of which economic tweak or overhaul we play under. I doubt that's possible without separate builds, but there's nothing wrong with "OTTD - the Anders model" or "OTTD - the Ever Economics Engine".
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by AndersI »

SirXavius wrote:Not only that, if TTD was STRICTLY a Transport game-sim, we wouldn't be planting trees in order to boost town ratings, or figuring out where to build company HQs. Those have little to do with 'transporting'.
Having a good rating has everything to do with running a successful transport company. Haggling about the price of coal hasn't.
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by Mr. Wednesday »

Xander wrote:That just seems very math-y and exceptionally dull. Does it really matter so much how much money you make? The great joy about (O)TTD is that it doesn't get bogged down with running a business like most other games do. It just lets you build a track from Coal Mine to Power Plant, move some coal, and provided someone isn't doing it better than you, you make money.
For suitable definition of "doing it better than you", I suppose that's true.

I don't particularly care for how the game figures out "doing it better than you" right now, but maybe that's just me.

(Edit: I think Andy's thinking on this subject is perfectly aligned with my own. In fact, I think he's stealing all of my ideas. :p)
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by SirXavius »

AndersI wrote: Having a good rating has everything to do with running a successful transport company. Haggling about the price of coal hasn't.
Completely disagree. The known price of coal has more to do with transporting cargo than whether or not a town wants you to build a station on their properties. Come to think of it, i've never known a transport company to build roads for their transport vehicles, where towns would then get angry for overbuilding, and keep them from building a taxable business within their town limits. Not here in America at least.

And don't mischaracterize the issue. We weren't discussing "haggling," but the internal model that TTD would possibly use to determine payment rates for transported cargo. Even if that was part of the discussion, i wouldn't mind seeing that option included. I'm all for variant gameplay.
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by ever »

AndersI wrote: Having a good rating has everything to do with running a successful transport company. Haggling about the price of coal hasn't.
You're not haggling about the price of coal.

I'll ask again did you even bother reading what I said?

You are haggling about how much you charge for the transport of coal

Transport companies charge their customers that's how they get their money. As a transport company you should be able to charge your customers. A company who has poor service at a high price does worse than a company with the same quality of service at a lower price

Its that simple.

You are not determining the price of coal but rather how much you charge for transporting each unit of coal.

You should be able to charge whatever the hell you want cause you are the transport company.

It has everything to do with transport and nothing to do with haggling the price of coal between industries.

In fact it assumed coal prices were fixed between industries not that you'd be able to make this distinction though as you chose not to read or understand what I said and just say stupid things out of the blue.

I agree with you that players should not be able to determine the price of cargoes or the deals between industries.

We are in agreement.

I'm saying the player should be able to say how much he charges for transporting the cargo.

Do you understand this?
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by dihedral »

SirXavius wrote:i wouldn't mind seeing that option included. I'm all for variant gameplay.
yeah - we know! but you are just all words, even managed to fill a thread (OTTD + 500 ...) with your own drivel, but there is never any action - you never touch the code you never provide anything else but your unqualified opinion!

ever wrote:I'll ask again did you even bother reading what I said?
you simply write too much - if you manage to express yourself in fewer lines, i guess people might start reading it!

Edit: quoted person, sorry
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by ever »

Write too much? What kind of statement is that

I expressed myself as simply as possible. I don't think twenty or thirty sentences should be off putting to anyone who doesn't have ADHD.

I could have written two or three more thousand words and I would not have gone over every detail and every possible problem with what I'm proposing, and I would have done so, not because I have so much time on my hands but because I believe all ideas deserve careful and due consideration in order for the right conclusions to be drawn. I go as deep as I do with my ideas and my writing because I try and cover every detail so as to create the most sound argument for them.

This is why it bothers me the most when people don't even try to understand what you said but jump straight into criticizing some non-existent weakness.

AndytheNorth nicely said "lol I didn't read it but hey this guy seems to have thought about it so gw man" Thats ok, he didn't read, it he didn't comment on it. Good enough. Others seem to be saying "lol we shouldn't be setting the price of coal" Yeah ok good we agree, but I didn't say that we should be.

I mean if you don't read what someone wrote why say its wrong? Or why say its right? Why respond to it all? Why respond twice? Why respond the second time without reading it if you were asked to do so after your first silly response?

You know I don't even care if none of you guys listen to me it's no biggie. I mean if I cared enough about this stuff I'd learn coding and I'd do it myself and until that happens I have no right to decide what people should or should not do with the game. I understand this, I'm not saying what should or should not go where I'm just saying how a good system of cargo acceptance ought to work.

But that's not the issue here. The issue here is debating etiquette namely the question of: Why be vociferous about something when you're ignorant about the subject matter?

"Your argument about cheesecakes is invalid, fish can't ride bicycles"
"I'm too lazy to read what you're saying so its wrong, that's not what the game is about"
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by ever »

Anyway back on topic.

Part the first: Considering the logical implications of fixed cargo payment rates


For cargo payment rates to be fixed the assumption of perfect competition among transport companies must be made. As only this may imply that raising the price above the going rate of transporting one unit of A for X distance and T time would be so commercially disastrous as soon as you do it the industry in question would turn to the service substitute (whatever that could possibly be, it doesn't really have to be anything seeing as it is not represented graphically). Perfect competition also assumes that any lowering of the price by a supplier results in no more or less benefit than before as the same amount is demanded at the higher price. Without the assumption of perfect competition, there is no reason why cargo payment rates must ever be fixed. Instead they would be free to be varied by the player.

Whether the world is to be fictitious, realistic or even outright ludicrous this is still the only logic you can have behind not allowing the transport company to determine the amount it charges for transporting goods.

As perfect competition is not represented graphically, the current model is only half finished in its implementation, and, if it is admitted that this is the model we want to adopt (that of fixed cargo payment rates), then it must be admitted that the logically following graphical representation has to be integrated into the game for its conceptual representation to be complete. How exactly would this be graphically represented? How would the suppliers and demanders of cargo substitute the services your transport company is meant to provide, when you're not providing them? The only answer I can think of is an already existing and set up transport network owned by multiple very small companies when the game begins.

Part the Second: Assuming all the logical implications of perfect competition are followed

So, If allowing the transport company to decide how much to charge for their services is ruled out for whatever reason, the main one I'm suspecting would be some kind of video game neo-conservatism, then crucial debacle in terms of gameplay, and logic emerges.

This is of course of the player being able to seemingly rip off industries by supplying an demander with an industry far away, rather than one nearby, forcing them to pay more.

The logical problem with this is why would they allow you to do that? We are assuming perfect competition after all, which means that you are just a small fish in the big pond of transport substitutes - if you charge too high a price, then you don't get the job.

The gameplay problem is this gives long distance industries a large advantage of those closer by to the point where the nearest industries can be completely unprofitable, when our rationality makes us expect the opposite result. This is the source of most player frustration and uneasiness with the current model.

Part the Third: Considering the possible solutions under a fixed cargo payment model

So far there have been two implemented (one more developed than the other) solutions to the above described debacle.

The first is the simutrans solution. In simutrans we see all cargo have predetermined destinations. All industries are assumed to have long term contracts with all their suppliers and demanders and are waiting for someone to come in and transport their goods. The industries also have quotas and stockpile limits.

The second of these solutions is the ottd cargodistribution way. Here when a network is established all traffic on the network will choose a destination based on distance.

Now the problem with the ottd cargodistribution way is that it doesn't really solve the problem. It only solves the problem once the player connects all the industries via a common track, but the player can still connect a demander with a supplier from further away and reap the benefits and the expense of the demander and never ever connect another demander or supplier.

In fact, cargodistribution discourages players to build networks as it makes them less profitable and needlessly more complicated than point to point connections. There has been talk of putting supply balancing ontop of cargodist, but this is just painting over the cracks

To the credit of cargodistribution, it is perfectly justifiable in passengers and express cargo. This is mail, valuables and, of course, people. In fact, I believe cargodestinations was originally only meant to cover these cargo classes.

Part the Fourth: Conclusion

If the fixed cargo rates model must be adopted, then the ideal way to handle it would be that of simutrans style pre-determined destinations for transport in between industries and cargodistribution style networking for express and passenger cargoes.

For those who don't like stockpile limits or the limited freedom pre-determined destinations gives, then a flat (i.e not dependent on distance just time) cargo payment schedule alongside cargodistribution for passengers and express would be the idea.

However, all that aside, the true ideal would be to do away with fixed cargo payment rates all together and adopt a simple demand model corresponding to prices the player charges for transport along with cargodistribution determined destinations for passengers and express networks.

Each one of these three is a vast improvement of what currently exists
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by dihedral »

you just wonderfully underlined my statement about you writing too much :-D
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by ever »

lol well what can I say

I like writing a lot.
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by andythenorth »

ever wrote:AndytheNorth nicely said "lol I didn't read it but hey this guy seems to have thought about it so gw man"
I did read it, but I haven't got an opinion either way yet. I'm chewing on the problem myself. I do know that *I* am not excited by the prospect of setting transport rates myself in the game. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun, it just doesn't excite me right now. However one of the first computer games I ever played in school was "Ice Cream Stand" where you run an ice cream stand...that was fun :) Many years ago :)
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Re: Idea: Improve acceptance of goods in terms of realism

Post by Mr. Wednesday »

dihedral wrote:
Mr. Wednesday wrote:i wouldn't mind seeing that option included. I'm all for variant gameplay.
yeah - we know! but you are just all words, even managed to fill a thread (OTTD + 500 ...) with your own drivel, but there is never any action - you never touch the code you never provide anything else but your unqualified opinion!
Please fix your attribution. I did not say those words, and I have never come close to filling a thread here with my opinions.
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