Please include open graphics, sound

[albeva]

As the title says -please consider including open graphics, sound and music in the distributed packages by default. I dare to guess that most people do not legally own TTD files thus this option should be deprecated in favor of free and open content. Those who want to use original media can manually copy the files.

It would also considerably simplify OpenTTD setup and distribution especially for people who are not as computer savy.

[PikkaBird]

It would also considerably simplify OpenTTD setup and distribution especially for people who are not as computer savy.

It would also multiply the download bandwidth required by several times. I download a new version of OpenTTD every other day and I don't need to get OGFX with it every single time.

[Rubidium]

The OpenTTD installer already has an option to download it, which is enabled by default for the first install. It doesn't become much easier than that!

[albeva]

It would also multiply the download bandwidth required by several times. I download a new version of OpenTTD every other day and I don't need to get OGFX with it every single time.

I'm sorry, but that is incredibly selfish of you. Not all people download it every day. In fact I downloaded it for the first time over a very long time. And when I ran the game it didn't even start due to missing graphics.

The OpenTTD installer already has an option to download it, which is enabled by default for the first install. It doesn't become much easier than that!

This is not a solution. Not all people run Windows, internet connection is not always available. Installer package and game should work offline.

I think solution would be provide dual packages with at the very least graphics included in one of them.

[PikkaBird]

I'm sorry, but that is incredibly selfish of you. Not all people download it every day. In fact I downloaded it for the first time over a very long time. And when I ran the game it didn't even start due to missing graphics.

And then you went and found the missing graphics and it started, right? So where's the problem.

And if you think it's "incredibly selfish" of me, perhaps you missed my point. Including the graphics in every download would add hugely to the OpenTTD website's monthly traffic and operating costs.

[albeva]

Yes I managed. And as I said not all people are as savvy. I also proposed a dual package where one would be full game and the other contain only the binary. And even if people manage to get the game running the still end up downloading graphics and sound. So I can't see the difference. Its about making things simple and user friendly.

[Rubidium]

It's maybe true that not everyone runs Windows and than not everyone has an internet connection, but a serious majority of the users has Windows and has an internet connection.
The majority of the minority that doesn't use Windows (based on download statistics) uses Debian or a derivate, which have OpenTTD and the graphics/sound packs in their distribution. The OpenTTD packages we compile recommend those extra packages to be installed.
This leaves a (very) small (~1.5%) amount of people that don't have an easy way to get it installed (assuming they have internet).

I don't know what percentage has a computer and no access to the internet. However, to get OpenTTD you basically need the internet in some fashion, so they can download the required files when they download OpenTTD. It's explained quite clearly on the download page that they need those files.

Now more technically: the free content is roughly 15-16 MiB. OpenTTD itself is roughly 3-4 MiB. This would mean that you want to make the downloads roughly 5 times as big, or at least add extra downloads that are that big. This would mean our mirrors need to handle 6 times as much data; currently it's about 250 MiB per release, so you're suggesting making that closer to 2 GiB per release. For that amount we could do half a year of releases! Given that we live of our donations and the generosity of our mirrors, we shouldn't be asking for a mirror that explodes at the rate of 30 GiB a year.

The graphics, sound and music pack releases aren't synchronised with OpenTTD, and they are actually releasing considerably less often than OpenTTD does. However, after a release of one of those packs all of OpenTTD's packages would be distributing old releases of the graphics/sounds/music packs. Furthermore we need to teach the compile farm to add those files, which means lots of nasty things, especially because the compile farm has no internet access for safety reasons! That makes updating the graphics/sound files extremely time consuming for us.

Finally: the number of questions where to find the graphics has been almost 0 since the Windows installer can download the graphics and Debian('s derivatives) have the free graphics. The only questions about finding the graphics seem to be about when we are making a package with graphics, sounds, music and binary.

Long story short: the idea is nice, but the implementation has many many drawbacks and there doesn't seem to be much people that actually need this. Though, feel free to make (and maintain!) your own package/installers.


If we want to make things simple and user friendly we probably have to completely rewrite OpenTTD itself first. The signal system is by far not user friendly, the NewGRF intricacies are by far not simple. Even though, aiming for making it simpler is good, but by providing the double amount of packages you are not going to make it more user friendly or simpler. So to keep it equally simple you have not make the small package, but that makes it less user friendly for those using slow internet and/or bandwidth limited.

[albeva]

That is merely inventing reasons as to why not. I personally think the installer and the game should work offline. And openttd packages in provided via package manager are often seriously outdated.

If you have such a problem with bandwidth then use for example sourceforge.net service to host and distribute the binaries and packages for free.

[FooBar]

The fact that the graphics/music/sound are much less often updated than OpenTTD is as good a reason as any not to combine the packages. You only need to download the graphics seperately once, as after that you can update them using the ingame updater. And that probably happens less often then upgrading OpenTTD itself (in which case you have the graphics and don't need to download them again).

The installer works fine offline, just RTFD (that's RTFM with description instead of manual) before you go offline to make sure to download the graphics as well. Besides, before OpenGFX you would have to download the graphics seperately as well (but thats no good reason, I know). The game works fine offline as well.

Also, if you have such problems with the graphics not included, then go find yourself a different game to play
Or, as Rubidium suggested, create your own all-in-one download/package.

[albeva]

FooBar you miss the point entirely. The problem is as I see is unfriendly and frankly half baked installation and distribution. And now it seems coupled with narrow minded fixed mindset about the issue...

Quite frankly why should I even need to read a manual just to install a game? It should be as simple as download appropriate package and run it. After that the game should just work without the need to fiddle with separate downloads or need (on *nix systems) to fiddle with permissions and such to copy the files into ottd installation folder (for me didn't work without root access!).

Its simply bad user experience.

[Rubidium]

The game works offline just fine, well... okay... internet multiplayer and downloading content doesn't, but that is like saying Firefox is broken because you can't reach Google when offline.


We once used sourceforge for our binaries, but it is seriously a horrible system. I really hope you have to NEVER use it.
1) you cannot automate uploading; I wrote a script that did it and... it didn't work for the next OpenTTD release, so I had to fix it just to notice it was broken again for the version after that.
2) uploading manually is extremely slow; speeds less than 10 KiB/s are no exception.
3) after uploading you have to select the type for each file. You need to do it for each file seperately, and each time you have to wait for the page to reload.
4) recently they seem to have limited you from selecting multiple files as being for Linux, thus making it impossible to mark all files correctly.

Back when we didn't do our own hosting, and used sourceforge a release took between 3 and 6 hours depending on many people to upload binaries just to share the load (and because stuff was compile "at home"). Now we do the hosting ourselves (and compilation happens on the server), everything is done within an hour with one person only having to do a single action. So, please don't expect us to return to the crap that is sourceforge; I rather spend the 10-20 developer hours we save by not putting stuff on sourceforge on actual development, such as fixing bugs.


Finally, OpenTTD is, as Debian, a "do-ocracy" meaning that if you want something badly fixed and nobody is bothered by it it is up to you. That might come over as "bad user experience" to you, but what can you expect from someone that spends countless hours on developing the game for YOU without you having to pay a dime!

That gives me an idea... maybe I should start selling CDs with OpenTTD on them for 10 euros + shipping cost to whereever you want it. Such a CD can easily contain a full release of OpenTTD with all the binaries packaged together with the data files. Though it would require me to publish my address so you can send me a snail-mail letter for when you want it without using the internet at all. Although... how would you get my address in that case? Hmm... dilemma!

[FooBar]

...or need (on *nix systems) to fiddle with permissions and such to copy the files into ottd installation folder

There's no such need: you can place the files in your home directory. But then this would require you to read something to find out about that...pity...

Also, I did not miss the point. It is clear that the developers are currently not interested in implementing your suggestion, I only wanted to emphasize that (as you appeared to have missed it, but that's not the point).

And yes, installation might require you to download more than one thing which might be less user-friendly, but it's not difficult and you only have to do it once.

[eliberatorM]

Yes, but whats so hard in installing openttd, the the installer downloads every thing automaticly.

[Doorslammer]

FooBar you miss the point entirely. The problem is as I see is unfriendly and frankly half baked installation and distribution. And now it seems coupled with narrow minded fixed mindset about the issue...

Quite frankly why should I even need to read a manual just to install a game? It should be as simple as download appropriate package and run it. After that the game should just work without the need to fiddle with separate downloads or need (on *nix systems) to fiddle with permissions and such to copy the files into ottd installation folder (for me didn't work without root access!).

Its simply bad user experience.

Crikey, did someone fall out of bed this morning?

I find the installer rather straightforward. The only "bad user experience" I get are the ones who demand far too much.

[Gremnon]

That gives me an idea... maybe I should start selling CDs with OpenTTD on them for 10 euros + shipping cost to whereever you want it. Such a CD can easily contain a full release of OpenTTD with all the binaries packaged together with the data files. Though it would require me to publish my address so you can send me a snail-mail letter for when you want it without using the internet at all. Although... how would you get my address in that case? Hmm... dilemma!

A simple solution then - create a form on the OpenTTD site that can be filled in with the details of what and where, and have it submit to an email address. Then just check it periodically, handle the orders, and no one need know your address.
A proper order-form, really. I don't think it's such a bad idea, actually.

[albeva]

sourceforge is not the only solution out there. google project hosting, codeplex and berlios to just name a few.

[Eddi]

and you honestly think that all these were not considered, when deciding for the current solution?

[Moriarty]

and you honestly think that all these were not considered, when deciding for the current solution?

Just because something was considered and dismissed in the past does not mean that it wasn't the wrong decision then or isn't applicable now etc etc.

The problem with this disagreement is that fundamentally both sides are right. Albeva is right in that not everyone has home internet while the others are right in that downloading the same data repeatedly is going to cost them a lot of bandwidth.

Personally I like Gremnon's solution - offer a choice that clearly states "first time downloading" and "upgrading" as download options or something like that - both parties win.

[Gremnon]

I got to thinking about it some more, actually.

Disk space permitting (And whether a CD or DVD is asked for, with a DVD naturally costing a little extra), one might also ask to have included a snapshot of Bananas*, or the OpenTTDCoop GRF pack, and other such useful things.

The other, more useful (IMO) side of this is that it would theoretically lift some load from the servers handling the downloads, and also cover some of the running costs of the project.

*Given how much is on Bananas last time I checked, I doubt that this would fit on a CD, not sure a DVD - so perhaps one could choose what GRFs are wanted from it.

[Eddi]

Be aware that some entries of Bananas disallow commercial usage, so charging money for such a DVD may be problematic.