"French Trains Set - freight rolling stock needs drawing

[DaleStan]

That is, a 1988 TGV could only have either all bilevel cars (and in that case it'd be a Duplex, changing, if possible, the looks of the engines too to make them more round) or all express pax cars (and in that'd case it'd be an Atlantique refittable to Réseau and Thalys), but not a mixture of the two in the same train.
...
No bilevel cars could be added to early TGVs (Sud-Est).
Ideally, one should be able to add bilevel cars to 1988 TGV's only after 1996

All three are possible.

Regardless of whether LaPoste is car-by-car or train-by-train, I don't think that's possible. You can detect: no mail cars, at least one mail car, and plurality of mail cars, but "at least two mail cars" is not an option.

I see. Then, I guess the only way for us to build a La Poste TGV would be to exploit the "plurality of mail cars" option and make TGV's switch to La Poste livery when eight mail cars (and nothing else) are added.

That's possible too, but "plurality of mail cars" means that there are more cars that carry mail than any other specific cargo: 4 mail, 3 pax, and 3 valuables[0] cars is one example of a plurality of mail cars. Engines, tenders, cabooses, and other vehicles that don't carry cargo don't count.

[0] I don't know if you're planning to allow valuables on TGV, but I needed a third cargo type for the example.

If the train is too long, it won't have enough power, and you'll want to add another "engine", which is actually two engines, and which would appear nose-to-nose in the middle. Being engines, if you code engines as having no capacity, they wouldn't.

You could also override the cars at position $FOO to look like engines. This would take some thought to do correctly though. $FOO can depend on the length of the train. You'd also have to ensure that <e][w][w][w][w><w][e><e]... doesn't happen. (Where <e] and [e> are engines, [w] are wagons, and <w] and [w> are wagons that look like engines). This is also doable, in various ways. The two that come to mind are: Draw engines as [e], and check for nearby change in vehicle type.

[wallyweb]

VIP - URGENT

We all want to get all this great work tracked.

I've just updated the proposed tracking table.
You're the folks who'll be using it.
I need your input to make sure it delivers what you need.
Visit it asap and use the suggestions link on the page to send your comments.
Tomorrow, if there are comments, I'll revise it accordingly, otherwise it goes to the server as is.
Here is the link (breaks after the table goes to the server )

[Snail]

Snail wrote:

That is, a 1988 TGV could only have either all bilevel cars (and in that case it'd be a Duplex, changing, if possible, the looks of the engines too to make them more round) or all express pax cars (and in that'd case it'd be an Atlantique refittable to Réseau and Thalys), but not a mixture of the two in the same train.
...
No bilevel cars could be added to early TGVs (Sud-Est).
Ideally, one should be able to add bilevel cars to 1988 TGV's only after 1996

All three are possible.

Great! Then I'd say we're set.

That's possible too, but "plurality of mail cars" means that there are more cars that carry mail than any other specific cargo: 4 mail, 3 pax, and 3 valuables[0] cars is one example of a plurality of mail cars. Engines, tenders, cabooses, and other vehicles that don't carry cargo don't count.

I see. Then I'd say to override the TGV's livery to yellow La Poste only if eight mail cars have been added. Adding more than 8 mail cars would result in a warning (MB style). Other combinations (like 7 mail and 1 pax etc) would be awkward and should be avoided, that's why my initial idea was to allow none, one, or eight vans. But even like this it's gonna be ok.

I don't think we should allow valuables to becarried by TGVs. They aren't in reality AFAIK.

You could also override the cars at position $FOO to look like engines. This would take some thought to do correctly though. $FOO can depend on the length of the train. You'd also have to ensure that <e][w][w][w][w><w][e><e]... doesn't happen. (Where <e] and [e> are engines, [w] are wagons, and <w] and [w> are wagons that look like engines). This is also doable, in various ways. The two that come to mind are: Draw engines as [e], and check for nearby change in vehicle type.

I see... not a bad idea! But would these engine-looking cars add power to the train? If not, we'd have to add two real engines...

I've just updated the proposed tracking table.
You're the folks who'll be using it.
I need your input to make sure it delivers what you need.

You mean we can propose changes in the structure and the displayed info?

[wallyweb]

You mean we can propose changes in the structure and the displayed info?

Yes ... better to do it now before it goes live and gets full of data etc.

[DaleStan]

You could also override the cars at position $FOO to look like engines.

I see... not a bad idea! But would these engine-looking cars add power to the train? If not, we'd have to add two real engines...

Either way, but you would be stuck with them carrying pax, at least until/unless callback 15 (refit capacity) gets overhauled, while the real engines would not carry pax.

[krtaylor]

I don't think you should do it that way. Do like I said, with a second set of real actual engines, generated nose-to-nose in the middle. You can do that with livery overrides.

[Snail]

Yah, I think so too. Adding a couple of real engines would be better.

[wallyweb]

-starting year of production (this ought to be there)
- capacity (and perhaps possible consists?) for E/DMUs
- length?
- nickname

Done ... also added life and refitable y/n ... Thanks for the input ...

Anybody else?

[DaleStan]

Visit it asap and use the suggestions link on the page to send your comments.
Tomorrow, if there are comments, I'll revise it accordingly, otherwise it goes to the server as is.

OK, now that I've convinced my over-energetic ad-blocker that that page isn't an ad:
- vehicle life AND model life
- Relative reliablility: a number from 0-255; default is 20, smaller means more reliable. (aka "reliability decay speed")
- Load speed: how many units of cargo can get on/off the vehicle in one load cycle (default 5)
- Running cost
- Traction type (Steam/deseil/electric)

At some point, you'll also want to set:
- Engine rank (for AI) (or callback 18)
- Visual effect type & location (VE type need not match traction type)
- Early retirement (retire vehicle before it starts becoming unreliable)

General notes:
- Vehicle weight is now a word value (0-65535)
- Strictly, TE isn't set; instead, you set the coefficient of TE, and multiply that by the weight to get the TE. It's impossible to get an engine with more TE than weight.

[Snail]

Hi all,

I revised a bit my engine list and now I came up with the 0.1 version.

Changes:

- Taken out the two "nez cassés" prototypes of the early Eigthies because they were just one-of-a-kinds and used technology which was to be commonly found in vehicles shortly after (1985's BB20010 was essentially a prototype of a BB26000, which was widely introduced three years later). My feeling was that they were just using up space.

- Added PO BB100, the original 1924 electric loco from which the BB4100 "Boîtes à ozone" were developed. That group now starts from 1924.

- Added 231 Chapelon, the famous steamers which Chapelon rebuilt in 1934 from old 231's (also present in list). A group was created with two suggested models, we could allow them both through refitting. Should become "Flèche d'Or" when pulling express coaches.

- Grouped the Z92050 with the Z5600 series, coz it was actually the same train with different liveries (we can get this thru refitting)

- Grouped the Z24500 and Z26500 modern EMUs together, since they are very similar, and suggested a carriage-by-carriage power scheme

- Optimized suggested data for some groups, especially using carriage-by-carriage power system in some E/DMUs.


This job made us spare quite a few slots, now "only" 103 of them are taken.


Known bugs:

- Still missing "Model Life" and "Vehicle life" column. I'll try to work on that.
- Missing reliability and almost all TEs; but the formers can only be indicative levels, the latters are difficult to find.

As always, please feel free to post your own suggestions, it's open to additions or deletions.

Cheers!

[DaleStan]

This job made us spare quite a few slots, now "only" 103 of them are taken.

What do you have in the way of future trains--those introduced from 2005 to 2020 or so? You can take up a few slots with those; you can also take up quite a few slots if you add a third rail system.

But still, 103 vehicles is quite a respectable number, and it leaves plenty of space for: "Oops! There's no $ENGINE_TYPE available in $DATE_RANGE. Let's add $ENGINE" or "Let's add $WAGON; we need better way to carry $CARGO."

I'd reassign IDs to:
85 Short passenger carriage
86 Local traffic passenger coach
87 Express passenger coach
88 Bilevel passenger car
89 Short mail van
90 Local traffic mail van
91 Express mail van
This will keep things in the order most people are used to seeing. It is possible to re-sort the list, but if it can be avoided easily (for example, by reassigning IDs before any code is written) that's preferable.

Other than that, just a few technical notes:
- You probably want to introduce the express passenger wagons a couple years[0] after the local wagons, so you can't end up with a game where only the express coaches are available.
- The coder will need lengths in x/8. Most TTD rail vehicles are 8/8 long, the sprite for the MJS 250 (tropic) is 4/8 long.[2] The first engine will always be 8/8 long, and no vehicle except the last may be shorter than 3/8.[1]

[0] at least 511 days.
[1] The coder will be responsible for ensuring this; I mention it just so you won't ask for anything that's impossible.
[2] Now I'm second guessing myself. I still think it's 4/8 long, but I'm not as certain as I was when I typed that.

[Snail]

What do you have in the way of future trains--those introduced from 2005 to 2020 or so? You can take up a few slots with those; you can also take up quite a few slots if you add a third rail system.

That's a good point. Well, the TGV Pendulaire is itself a futuristic engine, as it's still a prototype now (maybe we could allow it to go a bit faster, say 350? And is it possible to let go much faster than the other trains in curves?)

Maybe we can find some other ideas about future trains, like a loco capable of 250 km/h introduced in 2010-2015, or a very powerful freight hauler around that same date.

Here is the revised (0.11) version taking your notes into account. It feels a bit awkward to introduce express wagons after local traffic, as they were both already available in real life in 1920!

I thought we might want to add some self-discharging hoppers, like MB's in his set. They'd be okay for grain, coal and iron ore. At first I had the idea of adding some short stake wagons too, for steel etc., but now I'm having second thoughts... Anyway, now the taken slots number has risen to 105. If we wanted to add a maglev it'd go to like 109 (we'd need at least one train model, pax cars, mail cars refittable to valuables, and generic goods cars).

[DaleStan]

is it possible to let go much faster than the other trains in curves?

Not to AFAIK. Feature request? ... but it's already the fastest train. I doubt it would be very high on anyone's todo.

It feels a bit awkward to introduce express wagons after local traffic, as they were both already available in real life in 1920!

There's a tradeoff there between realism and ... for lack of a better word, realism. In reality, the wagon types were introduced one after another, not all at once. In reality, they were all introduced by 1920. You can't win. You seem to be managing this set, so you get to make the decision.

[hovering teacup]

some comments to the xml (version 0.1);

this set could include some suburban tank engines like 232 or 242 or 141 (141TC or 141TD).

the 242 a1 steam must be a prototype. also, the 160 available in 1940 is.

the cc80000 is prototype

you don't need all variations of locomotives of the same conception like "bb8500, bb17000 and bb25500" and "cc6500 and cc21000". just take one for each.


i'll have a look again when the list gets "dégraissée"



=====================
and some useful links (most in french only);

http://www.train-rail.com/
a reference. doesn't cover old stuffs

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/florent.brisou/Introduction.htm
many stats

http://site.voila.fr/Inventaire/
very little stats but covers old stocks also

http://autorails.free.fr/
"Paradis du X"...

http://www.railsavoie.org/

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mlgtraffic/index.htm
collection of gif screen savers. no stats but covers extensively the periods it covers (60s, 80s and today). has english sections.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/trainfrancais/Sommaire.htm
many photos

http://orion.math.iastate.edu/jdhsmith/ ... frsncf.htm
(index http://orion.math.iastate.edu/jdhsmith/term/slindex.htm )
stats in detail for many french and other countries' steam locos (i can't read but there'd be someone who can)


cheers

[Purno]

[Purno]

Sorry for double post but I just drew the X2100

[uzurpator]

Not to be bickering, but that TGV's don't look prototypical at all...

[Purno]

what is 'prototypical'?

[wallyweb]

Tracking Table - Final Draft - Preview Only

Now has images and working links for first train - The Irish's SNCF 172049
Sorry - specifications incomplete for now.

Preview it here

Last chance for revisions

It goes live later today (AST) after all engines loaded.

[Lakie]

Isn't the TGV Atlantique coded already by someone?
And I remember making a start on the TGV Duplex, but since I was never told any of the stats for it, I had to stop progress on it.

And what do you mean by prototypical?

~ Lakie