Transport Tycoon Forums

planetmaker wrote:Hehe. Yes, adhering to the cargo class standards is definitely a good thing to do and not have every set introduce its own definition of established terms.

We need to adjust WOOD as well - for whatever reason, the standard appears to be 'piece goods'. FIRS has it as 'bulk'

Wonder if there are any others?

andythenorth wrote:

planetmaker wrote:Hehe. Yes, adhering to the cargo class standards is definitely a good thing to do and not have every set introduce its own definition of established terms.

We need to adjust WOOD as well - for whatever reason, the standard appears to be 'piece goods'. FIRS has it as 'bulk'

Wonder if there are any others?

No, other then wood being a bulk cargo in firs, i think thats it

Different solution would be to define new labels. Perishables like fruit should be in the 'express' class.

Because we already call it "Fruits and Vegetables" rather than just "Fruit", I think a new label FRVG with classes Bulk, Express and Refrigerated is in order.

Changing WOOD to piece goods is fine.

Last cargo that needs attention is WDPR (lumber). ECS has that defined as bulk, piece goods. FIRS has it just as piece goods. Personally I think something is either bulk or piece goods and never both, but I believe we had that discussion before. I'm fine with either solution: new label or change to the classes ECS uses.

WDPR is now defined same in FIRS as ECS, I'll update the TTDP wiki.

WOOD is now piece goods - same as ECS.

I've coded FRVG as the label for FIRS Fruit and Vegetables, replacing the existing use of FRUT, with classes Express, piece goods, refrigerated. TTDP wiki updated. I'm not 100% sure this is a wise idea, but I disagree with the ECS definition of FRUT as 'bulk, refrigerated', and have defined FRVG as 'Express, piece goods, refrigerated'. I think this might cause vehicle set support problems.

Good. Then that's sorted.

andythenorth wrote:...and have defined FRVG as 'Express, piece goods, refrigerated'. I think this might cause vehicle set support problems.

We'll just have to wait and see. If so, maybe we can/must simplify it to 'Express, refrigerated'.

I'm far, far behind and a few months back, I wish I had been here when questions were being asked about FIRS, but I'll provide them here now in case anybody is listening

A question about power stations and windmills: what will they do to enhance the game? Power plants often aren't built anywhere near cities, so the chain of Coal Mine -> Power Station results in transporting coal and the resulting production of electricity just disappears into nowhere. Power plants don't provide additional growth for nearby towns or industries, and you cannot transport it. Although there are a lot of products that disappear into thin air (construction supplies, food, vehicles) at least with those products they have to be sent to an end point, usually a city or a resort. As pretty as the sprites are, if FIRS cannot use the output of electricity to enhance the growth of town and other nearby industries, then perhaps it should be left out.

About oil wells & oil platforms: I like the in-land oil wells, but after the late 1800s the industry moved to overland/underground pipelines to transport from the wells to refineries, very little crude oil is moved from inland wells via vehicles. I could support the idea of having a refinery generating refined products on its own since we can't build pipelines. However, water-based oil platforms often don't have pipelines that connects them to the refineries, and ships will be required to take the product to shore. That said, though, ships usually do not transport to a collection point that requires the oil to be transported by vehicle, if there isn't a refinery right there at the dock to take the oil, then it's transported via pipeline to a refinery. In this case, however, since again we can't build pipelines, you could have trains/vehicles deliver to a refinery and boost its production.

The exception to this would be power plants that accept oil as part of their fuel sources. But, if you take my above suggestion and eliminate power plants if their production cannot be use, that's a moot point.

As an aside, oil wells often also produce natural gas. More and more frequently this gas is being captured rather than burned off to supply the ever-increasing natural gas market in order to capitalize on the "free stock" that's created as a byproduct of oil production. Possibility of creating a new chain from that ends up with a product that can realistically be used. If it's not refined into another product that is used in another chain, it can be distributed to natural gas power plants, engineering supplies for factories, and now even directly to consumers to home heating and fueling NG vehicles. That could be a very "green" and progressive chain. Although, that might complicate things a little.

On the Waste chain: Yes, I absolutely love it, because it is so realistic. This doesn't need to be in "basic" FIRS but should definitely be an add-on that can enhance so much. In addition to providing recycled scrap materials, garbage dumps can produce methane gas and incinerators can produce steam, both of which can be fed back into any industries which require products to either produce power or consume power as part of the manufacturing process.

I think separating everything out into economies was a great way to go, and probably should have been suggested a long time ago. Maybe not even focus this on "basic" and "extreme" FIRS, but just break each economy out into its own individual set: mining / industry, farming / food, waste / recycling.

Enough of my rambling I suppose

kamnet wrote: Maybe not even focus this on "basic" and "extreme" FIRS, but just break each economy out into its own individual set: mining / industry, farming / food, waste / recycling.

George cracked that years ago Search for "ECS by George"

andythenorth wrote:

kamnet wrote: Maybe not even focus this on "basic" and "extreme" FIRS, but just break each economy out into its own individual set: mining / industry, farming / food, waste / recycling.

George cracked that years ago Search for "ECS by George"

Yes, I know of ECS, and that's definitely one part of ECS that I do like. I was specifically referring to breaking out economies for FIRS. I've noticed that with FIRS you've got so many irons in the fire that much of this isn't complete. Perhaps if you broke it down into simple economies and just focused on one economy at a time, you can get it finished.

I'm just excited for FIRS, especially the more modern style of graphics and how they're laid out on the map.

Working on some FIRS updates:

Primary industry production-boost cargos (Engineering Supplies, Farm Supplies).
These are now handled differently. How does it work? Each month, deliver at least one crate of boost cargo for a chance of a production increase. It's similar to how water and food work in desert towns.

If supplies aren't delivered, production increases/decreases in the game's normal way.

Stockpiles have been removed from these industries. You can deliver as much as you want, but it's a bad gameplay strategy. It's better to spread small amounts around a lot of industries and keep the deliveries steady. Use small vehicles to do this (small trucks, helicopters, small planes etc.).

The industry window will show how much production boost cargo was delivered this month. I'm not making any more information available...micro-management is unnecessary. Don't watch the industry obsessively waiting for a boost - just keep dropping off cargo and over time production will increase...except when a disaster knocks it back down Other changes
- Adjusting default production levels for some primary industries
- Cleaned up some confusion with Grane / Sugar Cane and Wool / Cotton
- Machine Shop accepts Fuel Oil
- Other stuff

I'm not recommending trying this yet, but these features are in nightlies from approximately r611. Probably breaks save games.

Working hard to get a 'proper' release of FIRS

Can't wait. When is the nightly compiled?

18:18h CET

Thanks for the answer. It must have been already compiling when I posted. Now I have to scuttle away to see what lurks in the corners of the new firs.

Some more changes - available from r641 onwards (may blow up savegames!)

Secondary Industries
- code to remove irritating small amounts of cargo (7t or less) that could be left at industries waiting to be processed
(not yet applied to industries that accept manufacturing supplies)

Cement Plant and Steel Mill
These industries have new code to make use of 'combinatory cargos'
How does it work?

These industries will produce *some* output if any one of their three input cargos is delivered. If two of the input cargos are delivered output will be produced more efficiently. If all three input cargos are delivered, output will be even more efficient.

No stockpiles, but there is a grace period of approximately one game month for each cargo type. Think of it as starting the furnace, or filling up the blast furnace or whatever

For example...start servicing a steel mill:
- deliver 100t of iron ore, get 25t of steel out.
- 35 days later deliver 100t coal, get 25t of steel out
- 15 days after that, deliver another 100t of iron ore, get 50t of steel out (due to the earlier delivery of iron ore)
- 5 days after that, deliver 100t of scrap metal, get 100t of steel out (due to earlier deliveries)

Sounds complicated, but it won't be. Don't try and micro-manage deliveries, just try and deliver all the input cargos regularly, in any amount you can find.

Other stuff
- Recycling Plant is temporarily gone. It will be back. If you've got it in a save game you may now see broken sprites - just magic bulldozer it, the code wasn't working anyway
- Water Plant is no longer broken and now works like other primary industries.

andythenorth wrote:These industries will produce *some* output if any one of their three input cargos is delivered. If two of the input cargos are delivered output will be produced more efficiently. If all three input cargos are delivered, output will be even more efficient.

I like the sound of this Looks like a nice implementation too...

^^ /me three.

andythenorth wrote: No stockpiles, but there is a grace period of approximately one game month for each cargo type. Think of it as starting the furnace, or filling up the blast furnace or whatever

For example...start servicing a steel mill:
- deliver 100t of iron ore, get 25t of steel out.
- 35 days later deliver 100t coal, get 25t of steel out
- 15 days after that, deliver another 100t of iron ore, get 50t of steel out (due to the earlier delivery of iron ore)
- 5 days after that, deliver 100t of scrap metal, get 100t of steel out (due to earlier deliveries)

Sounds yummy but now I have a problem.
Will I continue my test game with r600 on a 64 * 64 map or will I start a new one?
You work too fast andy, I hate you ... but not really .
Amazing progress.

andythenorth wrote:These industries have new code to make use of 'combinatory cargos'
How does it work?
These industries will produce *some* output if any one of their three input cargos is delivered. If two of the input cargos are delivered output will be produced more efficiently. If all three input cargos are delivered, output will be even more efficient.
No stockpiles, but there is a grace period of approximately one game month for each cargo type. Think of it as starting the furnace, or filling up the blast furnace or whatever
Sounds complicated, but it won't be. Don't try and micro-manage deliveries, just try and deliver all the input cargos regularly, in any amount you can find.

It would be a huge micro-management. Instead of delivering cargo to the station near industry, player will build the station several tiles away and make a truck route for unloading cargo to make delivery happen often. Sorry, but this sounds unplayable

andythenorth wrote:Some more changes - available from r641 onwards (may blow up savegames!)

Secondary Industries
- code to remove irritating small amounts of cargo (7t or less) that could be left at industries waiting to be processed
(not yet applied to industries that accept manufacturing supplies)

Cement Plant and Steel Mill
These industries have new code to make use of 'combinatory cargos'
How does it work?

These industries will produce *some* output if any one of their three input cargos is delivered. If two of the input cargos are delivered output will be produced more efficiently. If all three input cargos are delivered, output will be even more efficient.

No stockpiles, but there is a grace period of approximately one game month for each cargo type. Think of it as starting the furnace, or filling up the blast furnace or whatever

I like the sound of this It's a good way to handle this, I think Also: amazing progress you did once again, andy!

George wrote:

andythenorth wrote:These industries have new code to make use of 'combinatory cargos'
How does it work?
These industries will produce *some* output if any one of their three input cargos is delivered. If two of the input cargos are delivered output will be produced more efficiently. If all three input cargos are delivered, output will be even more efficient.
No stockpiles, but there is a grace period of approximately one game month for each cargo type. Think of it as starting the furnace, or filling up the blast furnace or whatever
Sounds complicated, but it won't be. Don't try and micro-manage deliveries, just try and deliver all the input cargos regularly, in any amount you can find.

It would be a huge micro-management. Instead of delivering cargo to the station near industry, player will build the station several tiles away and make a truck route for unloading cargo to make delivery happen often. Sorry, but this sounds unplayable

Well, that depends on how many primary industries (let's say mines) are connected to the secondary industry (steel mill) and what their production is relative to the capacity of the vehicles serving it. If there's three mines of each type hooked up, each could be served by a train with a capacity three times its monthly production and still make the production bonus. After all, it would be possible for each cargo type to be delivered each month. Now that would be the best case scenario, but I usually aim for capacities to be 1 or 2 months of production, and aim for more than three mines of each type. Only for long routes would I build very long trains, but then again by the time your network is large enough for long routes, you've got many mines hooked up already. That leaves enough slack for me to get the production bonus most of the time. And even if I miss it every now and then, it would not be to the extent that is worth the extra infrastructure and micro-management you're describing.

George wrote:It would be a huge micro-management. Instead of delivering cargo to the station near industry, player will build the station several tiles away and make a truck route for unloading cargo to make delivery happen often

Is that micro-management, or just route building? I don't think it will be necessary to do that anyway (in most cases).

andythenorth wrote:

George wrote:It would be a huge micro-management. Instead of delivering cargo to the station near industry, player will build the station several tiles away and make a truck route for unloading cargo to make delivery happen often

Is that micro-management, or just route building? I don't think it will be necessary to do that anyway (in most cases).

Making it would be necessary to achieve the highest production from the second industry and thus more cargo for delivery (and that means more income)