Suggestion: Standard rolling stock (ECS?)

[DJ Nekkid]

Hi all.

I were thinking the other day, and why dont we as a community make a standard set of rolling stock? Not neccesary (all of) the graphics, but the parameters of the wagons. And with ECS this could be pretty cool i think. Why should every grf-author reinvent the gunpowder every time?

The tt-community should dedice how many wagons, from what eras and with what capacities. And then it could be for example 5 "free" wagons each set-distrubutor could use as he7she/it pleases. For example for a Transrapid-style train, or something "special" for that set.

Some Ideas:
Old-era wagons (1920-1960ish)
cold-war-era wagons (1950-1990)
modern wagons (1985 - future)

Local passanger wagons (high capacity, lower speedlimit, 100mph?/160kph?) (+- 70?)
Inter-city-style wagons (medium+ capacity, unlimited speedlimit) (+-55?)
Double decker of both with aprox 1.8 the capacity
Subway car (super-high capacity, high (un)load-speed, but limited to certain engines) (+-150? one fan fit LOTS of ppl if you cound standing-places)
Refrigerator wagons (typical food wagons)
Bulk wagons (typical ore transporters)
Covered bulk wagons (typical grain and other powder-like substances)
Chemical tankers (oils and other chemicals)
Food-style tankers (for vedgetable oils, fish oils, milk, etc)
Boxed car-wagons (for most goods that can be transported in a box Perhaps with some random livery from RL transport companies (DHL and such)

and whatever other wagons we see fit.


pros:
dont need to reinvent the gunpowder/wheel each set
whatever is standard is nice in most places (what would the internet be without standards?:))
saves a lot of work for the grf-author, as one "only" need the livery override for passanger wagons.

cons:
i don't want my set to have "just" diffrent engines then that other set *point at some other set*
"boring" with the same wagons over and over again

Distribution:
im not 100% sure yet, either as a standalone GRF (possible? or do a wagon over-ride for passanger trains need to have the code in the same set?), or as a wikipage with the code, and a PCX-file, and then one cut/paste into the beginning (or end?) of the new set.

[wallyweb]

On the surface the suggestion looks good in that it keeps things nice and simple and well ordered. However there is one big problem ... nationality. Most of the new transport sets are based on historical representations of transportation in a particular nation. Unfortunately, when establishing and evolving their transportation systems, these nations rarely, if ever, got together to say "This is how we will do it together". Each nation grew its own system over time according to its own needs. Yes, one nation may have purchased equipment from another nation, but the timelines and applications still varied. This is the beauty of TTDPatch and OTTD. These adaptations to Transport Tycoon Deluxe have allowed us to experience so much more than Chris Sawyer's generic experience. Yes, there are similarities between the equipment used in various nations, depending upon the needs of a nation at a particular point in time, but there is where it ends. The points in time varied greatly depending upon access to technologies often limited by affordability and availability of resources. Rather than trying to mold it all into one, celebrate the differences. I am continually amazed by the abilities of the set authors and coders to deliver a truly accurate historical experience.

[michael blunck]

Before we have to deal with the usual "great idea!" contributions, let me point out that

- almost all existing train sets already have their own coaches/wagons,
- that coaches/wagons look different, even in very much related countries.

regards
Michael

[Dave]

"great idea!"

Dave Worley, Ruthless selective quotations 9-5

[Wile E. Coyote]

AFAIK there was simillar idea, to make world set, but there was no big interest for it. Besides, there is Purno's 2cc set in development, which contains rolling stock worldwide.

[DJ Nekkid]

i know the nationality-issues, but however

most of the wagons had +- the same size and capacity in the same periode of time. They did look different however, but here the wagon livery override comes in, as well as choise.

a part of the idea is: there are a few pages with non-finished sets here. And its lots of work to create all the engines itself, and one would also want wagons, not the "plain old" ones from the ttd grapics. This is were my suggestion comes in, kinda atleast.
Use the standard ECS graphics (or whatever we want to call it), and focus on the engines. Nice looking wagons with the cool not-yet-but-mostly-finished-train-set. Then when they are done with the trains, wagon overrideing for example a coal-wagon is (afaik) 6 lines in the nfo. (one action 1 and one action 3?).

[michael blunck]

[...] however

most of the wagons had +- the same size and capacity in the same periode of time. They did look different however, but here the wagon livery override comes in

But "livery override", i.e. "(one action 1 and one action 3?)" being the graphical representation of a coach/wagon, I see no use in the whole idea.

regards
Michael

[DJ Nekkid]

im not gonna argue with "the old guru"'s of this game, so if its not a good idea it's not i just thought it might be a good idea to have a "standard basis", but if the community dont agree i wont argue

[wallyweb]

... most of the wagons had +- the same size and capacity in the same periode of time.

The problem is that there were still differences in sizes and capacities as well as introduction dates. The authors of the various sets have gone to a considerable effort to research and reflect even the smallest of differences as accurately as possible. The fact that the specifications of the Patch accommodates these differences so elegantly is remarkable in itself. Does it really need to be redone? If sets remain incomplete, it is probably because they are still a work in progress. As for ECS compatibility, this has largely been addressed and accommodated by the various authors.

P.S. Don't worry about aguing with the "old gurus". It is only through these discussions that suggestions such as yours can be evaluated.

[Purno]

AFAIK there was simillar idea, to make world set, but there was no big interest for it.

You don't coincidentally mean the European Cargo Set idea? (The original ECS...)

Besides, there is Purno's 2cc set in development, which contains rolling stock worldwide.

True, since you're my coder, I guess you'll implement the necessary compatibility? I have no clue how ECS works myself.

[athanasios]

A World Set, that would serve as a generic replacement of original vehicles is a good idea, but I don't think anyone is willing to do it...

[Wile E. Coyote]

AFAIK there was simillar idea, to make world set, but there was no big interest for it.

You don't coincidentally mean the European Cargo Set idea? (The original ECS...)

Yes, I forgot ECS totally , that was another idea. But that was European set, and there was also similar idea with worldwide locos and wagons. Nothing really happened with that idea AFAIK (no drawings etc.)

Besides, there is Purno's 2cc set in development, which contains rolling stock worldwide.

True, since you're my coder, I guess you'll implement the necessary compatibility? I have no clue how ECS works myself.

I'll try to do that as much as possible.

[Purno]

AFAIK there was simillar idea, to make world set, but there was no big interest for it.

You don't coincidentally mean the European Cargo Set idea? (The original ECS...)

Yes, I forgot ECS totally , that was another idea. But that was European set, and there was also similar idea with worldwide locos and wagons. Nothing really happened with that idea AFAIK (no drawings etc.)

Aye, a set with worldwide locos and wagons could indeed be compared with the 2cc set.

Besides, there is Purno's 2cc set in development, which contains rolling stock worldwide.

True, since you're my coder, I guess you'll implement the necessary compatibility? I have no clue how ECS works myself.

I'll try to do that as much as possible.

I know

[Wile E. Coyote]

I've just searched and found World set topic which I talked about. So, 7of9's idea is not new, and Purno did something like that in much bigger amount.

[Purno]

Indeed, all sprites of the 2ccset are finished. But that's off topic.

I don't know if there's a standard for rolling stock and vehIDs in relation with ECS?

[Wile E. Coyote]

No, it's just enough to set ECS (or any new cargos) compatibility via cargo translation table. Now that concept works with OTTD nightly too.

[m3henry]

I suppose a 'generic set' that supports ECS to the full would be adaquete. and it would probably be the ttd graphics, with some extra loads for some of the wagons

[DanMacK]

Maybe look at doing a replacement of the standard graphics for OTTD? With newcargo and newindustry support, not everyone is going to want to use the standard train sets. Even for TTDP, some people may want a retro experience. I know Michael's cargoset did that using TTD-styled graphics. Maybe try that?? 3 generations of generic ttd rolling stock (plus Mono and Maglev) ZCould work.

[DJ Nekkid]

Maybe look at doing a replacement of the standard graphics for OTTD? With newcargo and newindustry support, not everyone is going to want to use the standard train sets. Even for TTDP, some people may want a retro experience. I know Michael's cargoset did that using TTD-styled graphics. Maybe try that?? 3 generations of generic ttd rolling stock (plus Mono and Maglev) ZCould work.

With the 10 wagons of each tracking-type from toyland graphics, as well as combining for example all "ore"-style wagons coal/iron/copper , as well as different liquid style wagons, oil/water/rubber, food: fruit/grain. So there _should_ probably be enough ID's if we use the 30 free toyland ID's as well as good combos on the refittings.

*done some counting*
current classes:
passangers
Mail
bulk
Liquid
Armored
Piece goods
Express

With 1 from each of the suggested eras it would need 35 wagons in total. As basics atleast. And that would leave a WHOLE lot extra to use. It would leave room for some new trains as well, but now we are probably getting way out of what the original idea. But what _would_ be cool is to make a new trainset that would be somewhat similar to the original one, but with ECS support, original names (EuroStar and not Asiastar and such), and perhaps it could distributed with OTTD, and makeing OTTD a tad more legal