Japan Set Development

[krtaylor]

Here are my thoughts on the subject.

1) I definitely feel that it needs to be possible to put mailcars on all trains, as we have decided.

2) Right now, we have an interesting mix: some trains have very clearly different mail and passenger cars, some have mail cars that are identical and indistinguishable from passenger cars, and some have mail cars that look very very similar but not quite exactly the same as the matching passenger cars. Personally, I prefer the last option: each train has mail cars that are in the same livery, but basically just have some of the windows blacked out. That way you can tell that they're there if you are looking for them, but they don't smack you in the face as an obvious mismatch. The only downside I see to that is that if there is a mail car as the very last car, you don't get the appropriate tailcar. But I bet there's a way to fix that via GRF: can you just have mail cars always shoved to the front of the train?

3) Also, I like the push-pull plan for MUs. It's true that the mailcars will "jump"; but if they are drawn as designed above, and the pantographs are coded so they do NOT jump, then it will not look odd unless you are looking closely to catch it I think. We might want to test this first though.

4) I am 100% in favor of having the MUs gain in running cost with the length of the train. That way we can make them quite cheap - but the costs add up as the train gets longer, until at some point you might be better off just buying a normal loco and unpowered cars. Which is the way it is in real life too.

[dandan]

Personally, I prefer the last option: each train has mail cars that are in the same livery, but basically just have some of the windows blacked out. That way you can tell that they're there if you are looking for them, but they don't smack you in the face as an obvious mismatch.

With some trains it's more obvious than with others. But in principle I agree that that is what mail cars should look like.

The only downside I see to that is that if there is a mail car as the very last car, you don't get the appropriate tailcar. But I bet there's a way to fix that via GRF: can you just have mail cars always shoved to the front of the train?

No, not to my knowledge, but you can livery override the mail cars just like passenger cars. We will need mail cars in the same variety as passenger cars (with and without pantos etc). I think we could do without driving cars, those we could override with passenger car sprites in any case.

Still, if we include mail car sprites for all trains, it is actually not too much extra work to make them optional via a parameter, which is what I would then do.

3) Also, I like the push-pull plan for MUs. It's true that the mailcars will "jump"; but if they are drawn as designed above, and the pantographs are coded so they do NOT jump, then it will not look odd unless you are looking closely to catch it I think. We might want to test this first though.

Yes, perhaps Toni could provide mail cars for the 415 EMU. I could then include those in the test grf.

4) I am 100% in favor of having the MUs gain in running cost with the length of the train. That way we can make them quite cheap - but the costs add up as the train gets longer, until at some point you might be better off just buying a normal loco and unpowered cars. Which is the way it is in real life too.

I agree with the part about MUs. As for loco-hauled trains, I think it would be better if ordinary wagons, too, had some running cost (though obviously lower than for a powered car) to not make that advantage to drastic. I have asked the Patch developers about this.

[krtaylor]

In principle I strongly agree that there should be more things with running cost - after all, even unpowered wagons need maintenance. The same goes for stations, bridges, signals, track, and everything else that you own. It would address the financial bulge that always happens too. But that is way beyond the scope of any GRF project, it's a Patchteam issue. If they do it, we'll use it.

[dandan]

Running costs for ordinary wagons are not an extremely important point. I just thought it would help us to make the set more balanced. Besides, together with the capacity callback it is the other thing that currently works in Open but not in Patch, which is why I asked the devs about it. However, if there are some slight differences, I think we can live with it.

[Toni Babelony]

If it's really a necessity to have separate graphics for the mail cars in the MU's I have another suggestion. Until approx. 1975 there were occasionally one or two mail MU sent along with some trains. These were mostly quite short local MU, but there were mail/goods MU in use. Maybe we could use that as a replacement for these graphics.


クモニ８３系


クモニ８３系１００形


クモニ１３系



キニ５６−４形


キユニ２８４形

[krtaylor]

Aha, excellent! I never knew there was such a thing! Yes, that's perfect where applicable.

[dandan]

Here is a tiny update to the train set. It has been renamed from "Japan Set" to "Japanese Train Set". I also fixed some small bugs concerning refitted capacities for freight wagons.

[krtaylor]

Using these, and dandan's updated readme, I have finally updated the public website with the latest version of the Trains. It is now officially a full public release. So we can post links anywhere else that is appropriate.

[stevenh]

An update of the Haruka with a real in-game shot.

[XeryusTC]

A quick question: is this set compatible with new industries sets? The previous version I have is only compatible with the default industries (thank god PBI re-uses those IDs) but not with the newer things like ECS or the brick chain.

[dandan]

A quick question: is this set compatible with new industries sets?

Unfortunately not. It is most definitely planned for the next version, but that is still a couple of months away.

[krtaylor]

Small bug. The refrigerated boxcars have an alignment error in the / view. You can easily see it in a train with both colors of boxcar, they're higgledy-piggledy.

[MJS]

Stevenh, the vehicles in your sig are all Japanese trams, are they not? Have the ones to the right of the first vertical bar been released yet?

[stevenh]

...Have the ones to the right of the first vertical bar been released yet?...

Everything on the left is a tram, everything on the right is a "branchline" EMU/DMU. The Red/Orange is the Eizan Dentetsu Kirara 900 EMU (Runs from Demachiyanagi Station in Kyoto up to Mt Kurama), the Yellow/Blue/Red DMUs are the Kiha 200s which occupy southern Kyushu and the colourful beachball-esque EMU is the Kirishima & Hyuga service between Kagoshima and Miyazaki in southern Kyushu.
Since they aren't trams, they'll be released along with the rest of the trains.

[krtaylor]

dandan, just want to mention, I've been using your test EMU GRF file, and I am very happy with it. I like the way you have coded it in basically every particular, and I think that we should do all the MUs pretty much the same way. The fact that the operating cost goes up with each additional unit is SUCH a great thing! And the push/pull operation looks cool too. I even find the "MORE" emblem OK, since the MUs really do look better with the correct number of cars. So all in all, that test I think is a great success.

[Toni Babelony]

Today I had some time and inspiration, so I've drawn some Mail EMU for the set. They are quite boring and should be an encouragement to use separate mail trains or deliver mail with locomotive hauled trains on mainlines. On local lines they fit very well as many local lines in Japan are electrified. DMU will follow when I start on the Class KIHA 58 and KIHA 07

Also, I've updated the Class 52 sprites and attached my Class 115 again, since I don't see it on the development website as an update for the old sprites.

if someone has different suggestions for more modern 'MU to include or exclude in the set, please do tell! I'm not too keen on modern Japanese trains, so IMO it doesn't really matter which one to draw.

I've also started some research on sounds for the set, since the trains don't sound Japanese at all. The steam trains sound like steam trains, but most modern locomotives and some 'MU also have an air-whistle instead of a typhoon-type horn. I'd also like to suggest a closing door sound (with warning bells) for the modern EMU when they depart. I'll make a list of it later.

[krtaylor]

Yes, I agree the set surely ought to include Japanese sounds. But I have a few questions about the way the sounds can be coded, since I have never tried to use them before. Primarily, is there any time-based control? I mean, is it possible for the sound used for the same event to be different dependent on what year it is?

The reason I ask is, it seems to me that for the modern years, we should surely use the musical arrival and departure tones that you hear in Japanese stations today, at least for passenger trains. But I suppose those were not in use in 1920.

[Toni Babelony]

The reason I ask is, it seems to me that for the modern years, we should surely use the musical arrival and departure tones that you hear in Japanese stations today, at least for passenger trains. But I suppose those were not in use in 1920.

Well, it's best to try and keep things simple IMO, since almost every single line has it's own dedicated sounds. That's why I want to keep it limited to horn and closing door sounds. A problem with long departure melodies is that they're quite long and in game they are only being played when the train starts moving.

Another option would be to have a patch made where you can choose the departure sound according to the group the train is in, but that would require some good coding skills.

Here is a list of different sounds I have in mind:
- Steam whistle (different sounds for departure and tunnel);
- Diesel/Electric whistle (different sounds for departure and tunnel);
- Modern horn;
- JR East Music horn;
- JR West Music horn;
- Odakyû Music horn (for the Romance cars);
- Closing doors: air release and dinging (only departure with 'MU).

I'll try to make the sounds myself to avoid copyright issues and the trouble of asking people to use their sounds.

[dandan]

I haven't understood yet how those mail EMUs are supposed to work. Mail wagons in certain EMU trains will use these sprites? And those EMUs will not get their own mail car sprites. This should be for all EMUs of a certain period or only a few?

krtaylor, I am very glad to hear you too like the 415 EMU. The only thing I would still like to test before starting to work on all the other MUs is the mail cars. Toni, should I try to code those that you just posted or will the 415 get its own mail car sprites?

I have never coded anything with sounds but my guess would be that it's the same as with year-dependent road tiles: It's possible but you have to reload/restart the game or reinitialise the grf to make the new sounds appear. I'll look into it when I have more time again (hopefully next weekend).

[krtaylor]

I think with the mail MUs, that they should appear in the train that has the similar livery. That is, we don't want a glaringly different livery for them. Obviously they would not be purchased separately, they would just be an override for a mail car put on that particular MU train.