(Newgrf) Ship capacities

[andythenorth]

So there was some discussion of ship capacities here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=915757#p915757

But it was getting a bit off-topic for that thread.

I don't think *huge* ships have a place in the game, and I didn't include them in FISH. Neither it seems does Michael for NewShips.

I wondered what the sensible maximum might be? In FISH I figured 1080t is enough. That's equivalent to a 37 tile long train using NARS 2. Seems quite big to me.

[Kogut]

Yes, ship with size like this in newships would be great. So why not FISH? I want to use tanker that looks like tanker. But in my game even larger ships would be useful (to avoid that stupid ships collisions I prefer to use very big ones).

[blitzkrieg]

The world's largest freezing trawler by gross tonnage is the 144-metre-long Annelies Ilena ex Atlantic Dawn, presently fishing off the coast of Brittany, France. She is able to process 350 tonnes of fish a day, carry 3,000 tons of fuel, and store 7,000 tons of graded and frozen catch. She uses on board forklift trucks to aid discharging.

Image --> http://www.scheveningen-haven.nl/info/o ... lantic.htm

As for other vessels, I remember Discovery/ natGeo airing an episode showing future ships being larger (Makes commercial sense) like the maersk container carrier with a capacity of 11,000 containers with net tonnage of 55,396 Tons!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_M%C3%A6rsk.

IMO there should be ships with large capacities.

[Ammler]

you know this grf?

http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=619506

[planetmaker]

IMO there should be ships with large capacities.

Just for the sake of whatever perceived realism, even if it totally spoils game balance? Would a load time at a fishing ground of 18 month be acceptable?

[SHADOW-XIII]

well, I remember playing games where I was trying to join all same industry into 1 HUGE network
I got to the point were industry was increasing production all the way nearly to the max of each (due to high reliability I am always trying to achieve) and got to the point that it was not possible to transfer all that stock (even 1 cargo type, like just iron cargo) in trains/rvs/planes and the only possible way was to utilize rivers/canals creating ships (still loads of them but at least then I was able to keep high reliability and transferring most of the stock)

so, like with plane speed (which originally is reduced to 1/4) is possible to change to comparable-speed-to-other-vehicles I am voting for an option to have cargo capacity of ships to be expanded to be comparable to other vehicles,
best would be done in core of the game (like plane speed switch) but grf will be enough if covers all ships (MBs new ships, original ships, sailing ships and any other ship set there)

[michael blunck]

This isn´t a question of single numbers (raw capacity) or of a (misleaded) conception of "realism". This is a question of game balancing, and this is not the only one, BTW.

Therefore, following conditions have to be taken into account:

- vehicle[*] capacities
- vehicle speeds
- vehicle costs
- infrastructure cost
- industry output
- ???

[*] ship, train, road vehicle, plane

regards
Michael

[Dante123]

IMO there should be ships with large capacities.

Just for the sake of whatever perceived realism, even if it totally spoils game balance? Would a load time at a fishing ground of 18 month be acceptable?

but what if the oil field/fishing ground/... produces wááy less than realism. in that case i would say: compare a real oil field/fishing ground/... to the one that you have in Open ttd.
see what factor the difference is between the recourses in real and the game.
scale down capacity from ships with that same factor.

this way you still have realism i guess

[SHADOW-XIII]

have to agree with MB, we should create some connection between industry output and amount of vehicles needed to transport cargo a distance considering speed and any other various conditions.

for example we have to choose minimum and maximum in industry output and decide how many vehicles will be needed to transport that amount.
to avoid times were we need hundreds or road vehicles/trains to transport cargo which will fit in 2 ships (well considering we could have intercontinental ships and smaller ones)

let's say using earliest road vehicles we should support minimum cargo output on flat lat, straight road, average distance with 5 to 10 vehicles?
while the same minimum using most modern vehicles could be done using 1-2 ?
industry output should not be growing too fast as well and considerably increasing with availability of more capacity in vehicles to avoid congestion or lowered reliability, let's say to max 3 times of capacity of road vehicle ? (so max will be using 15 to 30 earliest vehicles in the beginning and 15-30 of modern road vehicles at the latest stages), trains would be use in an industry congested area or as transfer point from road vehicles,

if balanced well, it would also had huge impact on game performance lowering total amount of running all vehicles

[andythenorth]

One of the things I've learnt with FIRS is that *reducing* initial industry output makes for better gameplay.

[Kogut]

you know this grf?

http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=619506

No - great, great thing!
*downloading*
EDIT: It changes capacity of default ships...

[George]

A copy from http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... 39#p921839

How big? (capacity)

Up to 2500 tons (2500000 litres). Oil rig on the highest production level produces about 3000000 litres of oil a month. A trip would take 4 months (average), so it would require 5 ships of such huge capacity. Imho that is a good number of ships per oil rig. Of cause in the beginning, when the oil rig produces 32000 litres of oil a month, such sips would be totally useless, but smaller ships should operate there. When production grows, small ships go to the other oil rig, and large ships come in service. This way there would always be about 5 ships per oil rig, but it would be different ships according to production level. Current situation, when the only thing the player can control is amount of ships, leading to have 40 ships per oil rig in service looks totally unrealistic. Large ships are invented IRL for such transportations, and I see no reason to miss it in game.

Maybe sort of an agreement between us could result in some progress on this issue.

Output of ECS industries is documented on the wiki. The thing you have to balance is trip length in days (speed), capacity and a number of ships. Speed does not role a lot (I'd say it does not role at all). So the only thing is number of ships and capacity. IMHO, the best number of ships is 5 (suggest you number if you do not think so). So, capacity = IndustryProduction * DaysInTransit / DaysInMonth / BestShipsAmount. I get 2400

[michael blunck]

Output of ECS industries is documented on the wiki.

Is output of FIRS industries documented somewhere in a straightforward way?

regards
Michael

[Woutert]

I think shipcapacities are ok as they were. However, the capacity in certain road-vehicle sets and trainsets should decrease.

[andythenorth]

Is output of FIRS industries documented somewhere in a straightforward way?

The multipliers can be found the code (in the openttdcoop public repo). Probably not straightforward for most people

Using the shiny, revamped, industry production cheat, here are some sample max primary industry production values for FIRS:

Oil Well:1,216,000 litres of oil
Fishing Grounds: 320t of fish
Coal Mine: 960t coal
Quarry: 640t sand, 640t stone
Iron Ore Mine: 768t iron ore
Forest 768t wood
Arable Farm: 128t grain / 128t sugar beet
Livestock Farm: 128 items livestock, 128,000 litres of milk

These will continue to be adjusted to suit game balance and in light of player feedback. The general direction has been that smaller is better - some of the most popular vehicle sets have relatively small capacities, and it seems to fit better into the game world.