IRC Meeting 20040828 2000UTC

[Hellfire]

(Note that this meeting is two weeks late to allow people to return from holidays and will be on a saturday instead of a sunday!)

The meeting will be from 20:00 till 21:00 GMT.

The agenda:

- Opening
- Minutes
- Progress on the FRD
- Progress on prototypes
- Progress on research
- Any other business

If you have any other topics for the agenda, let me know and I'll add them in this post.

[eXinion]

Wow, a meeting

I'm there! (if I don't lose track of the time)

See you then

By the way,

how's the FRD and adding the ideas going? anything left for me to do?

[eXinion]

Ow, I just noticed something:

an end time to the meeting? what's that for? I think we won't make it in an hour


20:00 GMT was 22:00 in Holland right?

[Arathorn]

I can't be there tonight. I don't believe there will be something on my subject though.

[Paranoid Android]

I would be on, butbetween 8:00 and 9:30 I'll be waiting for my sister to phone me during Morrissey's set at the Reading Festival.

[ChrisCF]

Absolute genius that he is ...
*double-checks he's filled his Smiths quota on his playlist*

I might have a surprise for you later, but I'm still waiting on a couple fo things for it to happen.

See you later.

[eXinion]

Absolute genius that he is ...
*double-checks he's filled his Smiths quota on his playlist*

I might have a surprise for you later, but I'm still waiting on a couple fo things for it to happen.

See you later.

What the h*** are you talking about???? :S



I don't get it!

[Hellfire]

I don't get it either.

But that's ok.

The end time for the meeting is an attempt to keep the meeting running smooth and effective.

I hope it will work

[Paranoid Android]

Absolute genius that he is ...
*double-checks he's filled his Smiths quota on his playlist*

I might have a surprise for you later, but I'm still waiting on a couple fo things for it to happen.

See you later.

What the h*** are you talking about???? :S

I don't get it!

Well, the first line was about Morrissey and the second was about The Smiths.

[eXinion]

The logs to last nights meeting:

Code: Select all

22:59 <@Hellfire667> So. Who's here?
23:00 <@orudge> Me
23:01 <@Hellfire667> Noone else? chirho? eXinion? Metalcore424?
23:02 < Vatso> isuck
23:02 <@Hellfire667> Why do you think you suck, Vatso?
23:02 <@Hellfire667> (Or did I read it wrong?)
23:04 < Vatso> :O
23:04 < Vatso> im just bored
23:04 <+eXinion> me 2
23:04 <@Hellfire667> Shall we start with the meeting, then?
23:04 <+eXinion> sure
23:04 <+eXinion> chirho'll show
23:05 <+eXinion> up that is
23:05 <@Hellfire667> Shall we wait for him? Or begin now?
23:05 <+eXinion> I don't know how long it'll take, so let's start
23:05 <@Hellfire667> Ok. Evan would say "Roll call", but I really don't care ;)
23:05 <@Hellfire667> Our topics for today:
23:05 <@Hellfire667> - Opening
23:05 <@Hellfire667> - Minutes
23:05 <@Hellfire667> - Progress on the FRD
23:05 <@Hellfire667> - Progress on prototypes
23:05 <+eXinion> :)
23:05 <@Hellfire667> - Progress on research
23:05 <@Hellfire667> - Any other business 
23:05 <+eXinion> me neither
23:06 <@Hellfire667> Any comments on the minutes of last meeting?
23:06 <@chirho> hello
23:06  * chirho returns with rice
23:06  * eXinion has no comments
23:07 < Vatso> I dont even know what are minutes
23:07 < Vatso> :|
23:07 <+eXinion> :)
23:07 <@Hellfire667> hello, chirho! Just in time for the meeting.
23:07 <+eXinion> 1 minute = 60 seconds
23:07 <+eXinion> even in polarbear-land
23:07 < Vatso> :P
23:07 <@Hellfire667> Vatso: minutes are a short version of the chatlogs for the meetings.
23:07 < Vatso> ok
23:07 <+eXinion> yeah, a summary
23:07 < Vatso> i checked it from the dictionary :O
23:07 <@Hellfire667> :D
23:07 <+eXinion> nice :)
23:08 < Vatso> called pöytäkirja in polarbear-language
23:08 <+eXinion> ow, alright :)
23:08 <@Hellfire667> Do we have a volunteer for making today's minutes?
23:09  * eXinion knows only "kiimainen kukkoo" 
23:09 < Vatso> horny cock, err
23:09 <+eXinion> exactly :)
23:09 <+eXinion> it was what we called a finnish exchange student :)
23:10 < Vatso> im scared
23:10 <@chirho> yeah, a useful thing to know in any language ... ?
23:10 <+eXinion> lol
23:10  * eXinion will volunteer if no-one else steps up to the plate :)
23:10 <@Hellfire667> Ok then.
23:10 < Vatso> "Meeting starts. Vatso tells some stupid jokes. Meeting ends."
23:11 <+eXinion> lol
23:11 <@Hellfire667> NExt item: - Progress on the FRD
23:11 <@Hellfire667> Lemme just check the cvs ;)
23:11  * eXinion hasn't done his first 10 items yet, as I'm just back from holiday...
23:11 <+eXinion> but when I do mine (probably in a few days), I'll probably do some more than 10
23:12 <@Hellfire667> I've done the first 10. I've also made a "traceability matrix". It maps the chapters of the FRD to the idea
23:12 <@Hellfire667> 's in the database
23:12 <+eXinion> that was a very good idea... :)
23:13 <@Hellfire667> Let's try to get some content in the FRD then. How about we both do 20 ideas?
23:13 <+eXinion> sure...
23:13 <+eXinion> i'll take 11-30
23:13 <+eXinion> then
23:13 <@Hellfire667> Great :). Anyone else any comments? I'll take 31-50
23:13 <+eXinion> oh no wait
23:13 <+eXinion> that includes evan's
23:13 <@Hellfire667> Heh... Yeah. But Evan can't get CVS to work. 
23:14 <@Hellfire667> I'll talk to Evan tomorrow. Give him 51-60.
23:14 <+eXinion> ow alright... I'll discuss it with m
23:14 <+eXinion> :)
23:14  * chirho checks out the texi doc
23:14  * eXinion has no CVS here, maybe I'll do the ideas tonight or tomorrow, but it'll take some time uploading it
23:14 <@chirho> Are we going to move a working copy onto the wiki, rather than into CVS?  That way, we can keep a definitive version in CVS, and do all the hacking on the wiki
23:15 <@chirho> (granted, someone will have to texify it, but still ... :)
23:15 <@Hellfire667> Hmmm... I'm not hesitating.
23:15 <@Hellfire667> DOH!
23:15 <@Hellfire667> without the not!
23:15 <+eXinion> :)
23:16  * eXinion would like to have a few more ideas in there...
23:16 <+eXinion> maybe when we've done the first 50
23:16 <@chirho> It also means that people that can't necessarily get CVS to work (prod) can work on it
23:16 <@Hellfire667> I wanted to say "I'm not sure" :P I mean, we *have* a CVS... On the other hand, people seem to get comfortable with web based systems easier.
23:17 <@Hellfire667> Isn't there some conversion script between Wiki and Texinfo?
23:17 <@chirho> It shouldn't be too difficult to put one together
23:17 <@chirho> I assume at least someone here knows some Perl ;)
23:17  * eXinion not
23:17 <@Hellfire667> No... But I do know php.
23:18 <+eXinion> me too, php rocks
23:18 < Vatso> i doont know anything about perl
23:18 < Vatso> but i do know php too
23:18 <@Hellfire667> Evan knows Ruby, which is "Perl++" ;)
23:18 <+eXinion> soo.... :)
23:18 <+eXinion> why does it need to be .tex?
23:18 <+eXinion> in stead of .texinfo?
23:18 <@Hellfire667> it doesnt.
23:18 <+eXinion> hm?
23:19 <@Hellfire667> The filename is FRD.texinfo.
23:19 <+eXinion> why do we need to converse something then?
23:19 <@chirho> because the markup is different
23:19 <@Hellfire667> Because Texinfo doesn't understand Wikicode
23:19 <+eXinion> hmm
23:19  * eXinion doesn't get it yet, but let's move on
23:20 <@Hellfire667> This ofcourse means that the wiki code *has* to be consistently marked up.
23:20 <@chirho> on the up-side, Mediawiki does understand TeX math mode :)
23:20 <@Hellfire667> right.
23:20 <@Hellfire667> Do it in the wiki for now.
23:20 <@chirho> so when people want to get to the technical details, you just need to translate <math> ... </math> into $ ... $
23:20 <@chirho> (at least, I hope texinfo lets you do that)
23:21 <@Hellfire667> We'll see.
23:21 <@Hellfire667> Next item: - Progress on prototypes 
23:21 <@chirho> Perhaps I can plagiarise the wikipedia editing help
23:21 <+eXinion> who was making prototypes?
23:21 <@chirho> Prototypes - do we have any of which to speak?
23:22 <@Hellfire667> I was. But I didn't have time because I wanted to sort out my school stuff before the academic year starts.
23:22 <+eXinion> it were prototypes of...... the gui? o
23:23 <@Hellfire667> I am going to make some prototypes demonstrating usage of libraries for image loading and if possible even 3d model loading.
23:23 <+eXinion> ow alright :) now I get it...
23:23 <@Hellfire667> So the graphics peeps have something to "look" at ;)
23:23 -!- orudge [orudge@orudge.users.quakenet.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:23 <+eXinion> yeah :) 
23:24 <@chirho> While I remember, from looking through that doc, does anyone have any objections to gpl/gfdl?  Just that, right now, every page on the wiki is tagged with a gfdl thing on it
23:24 <@Hellfire667> what's GFDL?
23:24 <+eXinion> another licensing thingy?
23:25 <@chirho> like the gpl, but for docs
23:25 <+eXinion> ah
23:25 -!- orudge [orudge@orudge.users.quakenet.org] has joined #tempire
23:25 -!- mode/#tempire [+o orudge] by L
23:25 <@chirho> usual format is to get your code under gpl, and your docs under the fdl
23:25 <@Hellfire667> Probably not. If it doesn't suit our needs, we can always change the licence, right?
23:25 <@chirho> pretty much, though I fail to see how it might not "suit our needs" but there we go :)
23:26 <@Hellfire667> Ok.
23:26 <@Hellfire667> Any questions/comments on the prototypes? 
23:27 <+eXinion> nope
23:28 <@Hellfire667> Next item then :)
23:28 <@Hellfire667> - Progress on research 
23:28  * eXinion has not researched :)
23:29 <@Hellfire667> AFAIK, Hyronymus was doing research on image libraries (png/jpeg/tiff)
23:29 <+eXinion> OT: what is AFAIK? 
23:29 <@Hellfire667> As Far As I Know
23:29 <+eXinion> ah ok :)
23:30 <@chirho> Does anything else need looking into?
23:30 <@Hellfire667> The prototypes will have some research in them, but I don't see any need for much research at this moment. Or do you disagree?
23:31 <+eXinion> no, I agree...researching for prototypes is best done by the one that makes the prototypes...
23:32 <@Hellfire667> Ok. Next item: - Any other business 
23:32 <@Hellfire667> I have one... Charlieg's comments.
23:32 <+eXinion> which werE?
23:33 <@Hellfire667> The only useful thing he said was a suggestion to add a milestone topic on the forum.
23:33 <@chirho> He's been posting again?  Best fix that ;)
23:33 <@Hellfire667> :P
23:33 <+eXinion> oh yeah, that.... it might be a good idea yes, but I'd avoid deadlines as much as possible...
23:34 <@Hellfire667> chirho: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=190679#190679
23:36 <@Hellfire667> I think that by the time we're coding, a lot of people will join the project. But we're not that far yet. And I really prefer not to rush thing "just because charlie said it would generate interest".
23:36 <@chirho> I agree
23:36 <+eXinion> exactly
23:36 <+eXinion> charlie should help if he wants it to go fast :p
23:36 <@chirho> Even the journey of a thousand miles starts wiht a single step
23:37 <+eXinion> I like that quote... what's that from?
23:37 <@Hellfire667> So instead of putting some deadlines down, a list of upcoming milestones and a list of current targets would indeed be a good idea.
23:37 <@chirho> Ancient Chinese wisdom say ...
23:37 <@chirho> Oh dear.  "New mail! From Boringly J. Stoutness with regard to Hi Chris, Specially for you"
23:37 <+eXinion> cool :)
23:38 <+eXinion> spam :p
23:38 <+eXinion> yeah Hellfire667, that's good
23:38 <@chirho> I'd agree.  That would be useful.
23:39 <@Hellfire667> Ok. I'll make the topic. Any other business?
23:39 <+eXinion> wow, maybe 21:00 GMT is a good ending :D
23:39 <@chirho> What stuff should go onto the wiki in terms of laying down a structure before the masses crap all over it?
23:40 <+eXinion> I don't know, I have to investigate the use of the wiki
23:40 <@Hellfire667> Umm...
23:40 <@Hellfire667> The design documents.
23:40 <@Hellfire667> Research items.
23:41 <@chirho> I can copy/paste in the Wikipedia help pages, and get to work writing a basic style manual, so people know *how* they should be writing.  I can probably also get the stuff from the design docs in somewhere
23:41 <@chirho> A good Milestones page would be useful as well
23:41 <@Hellfire667> Right!
23:41 <+eXinion> yes
23:42 <@Hellfire667> Perhaps some "screenshots" mady by our graphics artists ;)
23:42 <@Hellfire667> Concept art.
23:43 <@chirho> I suppose I could also, in the Help section, lay down some basic ground rules, mostly common sensy stuff about civility, not biting people, etc.
23:43 <@Hellfire667> Keeping the wiki pages neutral of tone.
23:43 <@chirho> exactly
23:44 <@chirho> (Someone's been reading Wikipedia :)
23:44 <@Hellfire667> Put critique in the comments and the forums. NOt in the pages themselfs.
23:44 <@chirho> yes - "Talk pages are there for a reason"
23:44  * chirho loves Talk pages :)
23:45 <@Hellfire667> Anything else on the wiki?
23:45 <@chirho> It would probably be a good idea, to avoid any kind of horrible legal copyright mess, to claim everything for the project.
23:45 <@chirho> i.e. "We own anything you post here"
23:45 <@Hellfire667> Doesn't the GFDL cover that?
23:46 <@chirho> probably, but it can't hurt to remind people
23:46 <@chirho> since someone iwll inevitably post something like "this text copyright J Random User" etc.
23:46 <@chirho> "We are not an advertising medium", etc.
23:46 <@Hellfire667> Ah yes. True. There should be a reminder then.
23:47 <@Hellfire667> "You don't own anything you post here" ;)
23:47 <@chirho> Ultimately, I hold the keys to the wiki, so any dispute is probably futile ;)  But, does anyone have any objection to allowing anon editing?
23:48 <@Hellfire667> Yes. Let them register for editing.
23:48 <@Hellfire667> So we know who makes changes to the pages.
23:48  * eXinion agrees to that
23:49 <@chirho> OK, but let it be known that I am *very* much against forced registration.  IMO, we have more to lose by not letting people edit
23:49 <@chirho> and any pages which only certain people should edit, can be set up so that only those special people can edit them
23:50 <@Hellfire667> Maybe the "talk pages" as you call them should be open for anon editing?
23:50 <+Jpl> hmmm. *wakes*
23:50 <+eXinion> lol
23:50 <@chirho> so far, according to the MW folk, there's no way of making only the Talk: namespace (and its variants) open to anon users
23:51 <@chirho> it's all or nothing, and quite frankly I think we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot if we chose nothing.
23:52 <+eXinion> hmm...
23:52 <+eXinion> don't know about that then...
23:52 <@Hellfire667> hmm...
23:52 <+eXinion> and the forum? is that included in the 'all or nothing'?
23:52 <@Hellfire667> Compromise: all for now. Nothing if things go wrong.
23:52 <+eXinion> sounds good
23:52 <@Hellfire667> chirho?
23:53 <@chirho> if you mean tt-forums, then no - because phpbb allows you to decide per-forum
23:53 <@chirho> (lagging a little)
23:53 <+eXinion> I didn't mean that...
23:53 <+eXinion> never mind :)
23:53 <+eXinion> no forums in the wiki... :S 
23:53 <@chirho> the sf forums are in a similar position though, because those are "all users" or "all registered sf users"
23:53 <+eXinion> sorry
23:54 <@chirho> the best restriction that allows for the developer forums is "no unregistered users"
23:54 <@chirho> so anyone can register an account on sf and spam it if they really want to
23:54 <+eXinion> true
23:54 <@chirho> in general, I also find it useful to be able to edit without causing any damage, without having to register duplicate acocunts
23:55 <@Hellfire667> Ok. Do we have everything sorted out for the wiki now?
23:55 <@chirho> sounds good for now, though I'll have to dig to see exactly *how* to stop anon users from editing, if it becomes a serious problem
23:55 <+eXinion> :)
23:55 <@Hellfire667> ok then. Anything else for "AOB"?
23:56 <+eXinion> not for me
23:56 <@chirho> advance apology for next week, if there's a meeting next week
23:56 <@chirho> my mother is getting married :)
23:56 <+eXinion> wow :)
23:56 <@Hellfire667> congrats for your mom then :)
23:56 <+eXinion> yeah
23:56 <@chirho> I'll pass them on ;)
23:57 <+eXinion> meeting over? then we'll make the deadline :p
23:57 <@Hellfire667> Meeting over :) Next meeting in two weeks? Same time?
23:57 <@Hellfire667> Or shall we make it a sundayafternoon again?
23:57 <+eXinion> why two weeks?
23:57 <+eXinion> sundayafternoon we had more turn-up, right?
23:57 <@Hellfire667> to get actually some stuff done between the meetings :)
23:57 <+eXinion> ow okay :)
23:58  * eXinion 's gonna watch some tv
23:58 <+eXinion> see you guys later... 
23:58 <+eXinion> I'll make the minutes tomorrow
23:58 <@Hellfire667> Next meeting: September 12th, 1600 UTC.
23:58 <@Hellfire667> Later, eXinion.
23:59 -!- eXinion [~Lucky@cm101237-a.maast1.lb.home.nl] has quit [Read error: EOF from client]
23:59 <@Hellfire667> I'm going offline too. Give my girlfriend, who has been waiting patiently next to me, some attention
--- Log closed Sun Aug 29 00:00:13 2004

Next meeting at September 12th, 1600 UTC, minutes will be made someday soon

ps. Sorry there's no .txt file or something, bit of a long post

[oliver]

Sorry that I wasn't there, again.

Had to go home to the 'rents cos I just got back from vacation ...
Should be better from now on though!

Can't belive summer vacation is over again however

[Hyronymus]

I'm a bit confused. I thought research into fraphics libraries wasn't necessairy anymore since some decision was made. What do I do know ?!

[eXinion]

Well, I've finished the minutes, and here they are!

Next meeting's at September 12th, 1600 Hrs (GMT)!

[Zuu]

Where can I find the wiki?

[Mek]

Where can I find the wiki?

** Side Note **
Chirho has set up a wiki at tt2.sf.net/wiki
**

[Zuu]

Perhaps we shall update sf.net to eiter point to the wiki, or create a index page with links to: project page, forum and wiki.

This have to be done by someone with ssh acces to our webspace. Admins have for sure. If devs have, Im not sure.

[Mek]

Perhaps we shall update sf.net to eiter point to the wiki, or create a index page with links to: project page, forum and wiki.

This have to be done by someone with ssh acces to our webspace. Admins have for sure. If devs have, Im not sure.

devs have also, but owen has made index.html only writeable for himself, so i had to improvise a little but now on tt2.sf.net there is a link to the wiki aswell

[eXinion]

Hey,
as I've stated during the meeting, I'd do ideas 11 through 30, I've done 11 through 20 now, but I've not yet committed them to CVS, that'll happen tomorrow.

The idea behind this post is: I've not yet contacted Evan about those ideas, he was first supposed to do these, but during the meeting we agreed that I would do them, and Evan would do 51 through 60. So have fun, Evan

See ya

[eXinion]

Hey,
as I've stated during the meeting, I'd do ideas 11 through 30, I've done 11 through 20 now, but I've not yet committed them to CVS, that'll happen tomorrow.

The idea behind this post is: I've not yet contacted Evan about those ideas, he was first supposed to do these, but during the meeting we agreed that I would do them, and Evan would do 51 through 60. So have fun, Evan

See ya

I've committed the files, but ViewCVS (at sourceforge) does not yet see them as committed, anyone know why? (in my own CVS-program, it shows status at rev. 1.4 for the FRD)<-- never mind that, it's all good now

[orudge]

devs have also, but owen has made index.html only writeable for himself, so i had to improvise a little but now on tt2.sf.net there is a link to the wiki aswell

Did I? Oops... I can fix that at the weekend.

EDIT: Oh, you already seem to have fixed it.