Transport Tycoon Forums

Two wishes.
One is to add a removable switch for the transmitter, where the removal cost could be quite high, but this would mean I wouldn't have to resort to cheating mode.
The other is to introduce two-way exit train depot, similar to how ship depot operate.

accipiter2000 wrote: 09 Mar 2024 04:12 One is to add a removable switch for the transmitter, where the removal cost could be quite high, but this would mean I wouldn't have to resort to cheating mode.

"Cheating mode" is a bit of a misnomer, and for that in OpenTTD 14 you will not only find that this has now been renamed to the more appropriate "Sandbox Options", but it is accessible within the game from the "Options and Setting" button instead of hidden behind a hotkey. There's nothing cheating about enabling the Magic Bulldozer to remove objects that the original game never intended but still annoys the crap out of players.

In addition, to address the unpleasantness of the the transmitters, there are a couple of NewGRFs that change the transmitter's appearance:

1. I created Rock Replacement for Transmitter which does what it says on the label.

2. The above is also incorporated as a parameter in OpenGFX+ Landscape

3. The former also inspired the creation of Transmitter by Date, which changes the transmitter into a more period-appropriate looking object depending on the date.

The other is to introduce two-way exit train depot, similar to how ship depot operate.

This isn't currently available in OpenTTD 14, but it available as a feature of the JGR Patch Pack. If you're an experienced OpenTTD player, this modified version of the game offers many advanced features and "quality of life" upgrades, although saved games, multiplayer games and scenarios created with JGRPP are not compatible with the stock OpenTTD client.

kamnet wrote: 09 Mar 2024 07:18"Cheating mode" is a bit of a misnomer, and for that in OpenTTD 14 you will not only find that this has now been renamed to the more appropriate "Sandbox Options", but it is accessible within the game from the "Options and Setting" button instead of hidden behind a hotkey. There's nothing cheating about enabling the Magic Bulldozer to remove objects that the original game never intended but still annoys the crap out of players.

With all due respect, using the "Sandbox Options" still counts as cheating and its name replacement seems a little bit misleading. Besides... and what I meant with "misleading", is that it STILL stops the players from appearing in the high score screen when reaching the game-ending year--implying that such players have cheated! But on the other hand, I guess that's pretty fair (because cheating spoils the fun), so I humbly digress.

TheDarkGiganotosaur wrote: 09 Mar 2024 11:35

kamnet wrote: 09 Mar 2024 07:18"Cheating mode" is a bit of a misnomer, and for that in OpenTTD 14 you will not only find that this has now been renamed to the more appropriate "Sandbox Options", but it is accessible within the game from the "Options and Setting" button instead of hidden behind a hotkey. There's nothing cheating about enabling the Magic Bulldozer to remove objects that the original game never intended but still annoys the crap out of players.

With all due respect, using the "Sandbox Options" still counts as cheating and its name replacement seems a little bit misleading. Besides... and what I meant with "misleading", is that it STILL stops the players from appearing in the high score screen when reaching the game-ending year--implying that such players have cheated! But on the other hand, I guess that's pretty fair (because cheating spoils the fun), so I humbly digress.

There's no such thing as "cheating" in a non-competitive game, really... the entire game is a sandbox and half of the settings options could be considered "cheats"... we allow people to disable breakdowns and natural disasters, for example, and using many GRFs is basically cheating too. Along with using features that weren't even in original TTD

I agree that perhaps the high score table should be split into separate "Sandbox" and "Vanilla" tabs to be more reflective of this

audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12There's no such thing as "cheating" in a non-competitive game, really...

Then explain why the game still stops the players from appearing in the high score screen after using the "Sandbox Options"? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me... competitive or not. If it's no longer considered "cheating", then don't punish the players by disabling the ability to appear in the high score screen when the game reaches the ending year. Or at least put a clear warning message to let the players know, especially newbies.

audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12the entire game is a sandbox

The game is a transport simulation--it's all about transporting anything anywhere for big bucks via road, rail, water, and air vehicles. Nothing more, nothing less.

audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12and half of the settings options could be considered "cheats"... we allow people to disable breakdowns and natural disasters, for example, and using many GRFs is basically cheating too. Along with using features that weren't even in original TTD

Let's just agree to disagree. OpenTTD is an extremely vast improvement over the original TTD. Yes, TTD was great during its time, and I did play it so many times via DOSBox... but TTD was insanely superseeded by OpenTTD--TTD has so many flaws and dire limitations whereas OpenTTD provides many fixes, vast enhancements, much lesser limitations, and makes it a thousand times better than TTD. Oh, and as for disasters, it can also be disabled in the old TTD (via "Difficult settings").

Sandbox (or cheats, as it was once called), I don't use them--they really spoil the fun, and should only be used for debugging purposes, but that's just my opinion.

Interpreting the NewGRF usage as cheating would be remotely unfair, don't you think? I mean, the original TTD has much fewer vehicles (especially monorail and maglev) and industries... and thanks to many highly talented people here who created many vehicle and industry sets, there's a reason to make OpenTTD much more enjoyable for many years to come. Oh, and not to mention other NewGRFs that can do many useful things... like giving Toyland landscape a nice "makeover", for example.

audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12I agree that perhaps the high score table should be split into separate "Sandbox" and "Vanilla" tabs to be more reflective of this

I guess that would suffice as a solution to this issue.

The game is 30 years old, let's not act like every decision made in 1992-1993 stands today

Do you use GRFs? They were not part of the original game

Things change. If you don't want to use the sandbox options then don't, but don't be judgemental of other people who want to enjoy the game differently to you

Let's not derail the thread with long debates--I was ONLY pointing out an issue with the "Sandbox Options" regarding ONLY the "players not showing up in the high score screen after its usage" part... and I already said all I needed to, so let's agree to disagree and be on our way.

But since you insist, let's continue, shall we?

audigex wrote: 03 Apr 2024 00:50The game is 30 years old, let's not act like every decision made in 1992-1993 stands today

Yes, and...? We're talking about OpenTTD, not TTD. Let's leave the past into the past and focus on the present and the future.

Also, I'm not acting anything nor I'm forcing anyone to do things my way... I'm just pointing things out, and then it'll be up for the developers to decide what to do about them, not me. If it's possible, cool... if not, fine. Please don't put words into my mouth.

audigex wrote: 03 Apr 2024 00:50Do you use GRFs? They were not part of the original game

Again, we're talking about OpenTTD, not TTD! As for whoever uses NewGRFs, it's up for the players to decide how they want to play the game, original or not. To each their own.

audigex wrote: 03 Apr 2024 00:50Things change. If you don't want to use the sandbox options then don't, but don't be judgemental of other people who want to enjoy the game differently to you

OpenTTD changes, not TTD. So once again, we're talking about OpenTTD, not TTD. I'm not judging nor I'd criticize everyone's gameplay preferences--people are totally free to play the game as they see fit... and like I said, to each their own. Again, don't put words into my mouth.

Lastly... and just to be clear, I'm all for benefiting EVERYONE. Whaddaya think I am? Selfish?

kamnet wrote: 09 Mar 2024 07:18 In addition, to address the unpleasantness of the the transmitters, there are a couple of NewGRFs that change the transmitter's appearance:

It's not about the appearance of the transmitters, but that they make it difficult to build freely, and partly that, in contrast, when the player can freely demolish an entire city, not being able to remove a small transmitter makes no sense.

audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12 There's no such thing as "cheating" in a non-competitive game, really... the entire game is a sandbox and half of the settings options could be considered "cheats"... we allow people to disable breakdowns and natural disasters, for example, and using many GRFs is basically cheating too. Along with using features that weren't even in original TTD

First of all, cheating is not about setting the rules of the game (choosing newGRF, settings), but it can be about changing these rules during the game (including singleplayer / with AI) and creating an unfair advantage. If you are not interested in the game economy and competition or challenges in your games, then changing any settings will probably not be cheating, and you are right here. But, as you said so well, don't be judgemental of other people who want to enjoy the game differently to you. This game is not (purely) a sandbox. It is not also nothing more and nothing less than a simulator. There are many ways to play this game, not just one or two.

Regarding the sandbox options window, changing the name was an illusory change and did not change the most important thing, i.e. how the game perceives these options and, as TheDarkGiganotosaur wrote, a player who uses these options is still ultimately treated as a cheater. The name change was made in good faith, but the result of it and several other changes is that the settings are now terribly inconsistent.

Options that clearly should have been included in the cheat window/sandbox options, such as "Infinite money" or "permissive local authority", which allows you to demolish entire cities with impunity, are among the regular settings. Meanwhile, options that never gave any particular advantage, such as crossing tunnels, changing the maximum height of the map (isn't this some sort of fossil?), ability to demolish transmitters and unsupported enterprises (for a sufficiently high fee), are still there or have even been given the title of cheating, such as no plane crashes, although previously for years it was one of the most popular regular game options...

I am not against the cheat window or the sandbox option, I don't want it removed, I believe that some options that significantly facilitate the gameplay should have the status of "forbidden". However, I believe that tidying up and a more logical division of these options are needed.

LaChupacabra wrote: 03 Apr 2024 20:12But, as you said so well, don't be judgemental of other people who want to enjoy the game differently to you.

Yes, but I kinda resent that such comment was directed at ME. Besides, the words "I humbly digress" and "that's just my opinion" have a LOGICAL meaning to them--they ain't there just for show, therefore I didn't come here making demands nor discriminating people's gameplay preferences nor telling everyone how the game should be played, et cetera... and I'm NOT here to offend anyone (if I did, I apologize). Heck, I never said such things! Always talking about TTD this and TTD that when I was simply and specifically referring to OpenTTD...

Although I'm a nice person and have shown exemplary conduct here, I won't tolerate false claims about me and ill-reasoned remarks. Just be nice...

LaChupacabra wrote: 03 Apr 2024 20:12Regarding the sandbox options window, changing the name was an illusory change and did not change the most important thing, i.e. how the game perceives these options and, as TheDarkGiganotosaur wrote, a player who uses these options is still ultimately treated as a cheater. The name change was made in good faith, but the result of it and several other changes is that the settings are now terribly inconsistent.

Yup, my thoughts exactly... and also the SOLE reason why I came to this thread in the first place--and especially because of the high score screen issue. No additional (and redundant) discussion was needed, but it all happened just because I simply and harmlessly spoke my mind...

LaChupacabra wrote: 03 Apr 2024 20:12Options that clearly should have been included in the cheat window/sandbox options, such as "Infinite money" or "permissive local authority", which allows you to demolish entire cities with impunity, are among the regular settings. Meanwhile, options that never gave any particular advantage, such as crossing tunnels, changing the maximum height of the map (isn't this some sort of fossil?), ability to demolish transmitters and unsupported enterprises (for a sufficiently high fee), are still there or have even been given the title of cheating, such as no plane crashes, although previously for years it was one of the most popular regular game options...

Why not ask audigex if any of those "Godlike" (sandboxing/cheating) features were in the "original game" as well?

On second thought, don't... it was only a rhetorical question. Sheesh...

LaChupacabra wrote: 03 Apr 2024 20:12I am not against the cheat window or the sandbox option, I don't want it removed, I believe that some options that significantly facilitate the gameplay should have the status of "forbidden". However, I believe that tidying up and a more logical division of these options are needed.

Quoted for truth.

accipiter2000 wrote: 09 Mar 2024 04:12 Two wishes.
One is to add a removable switch for the transmitter, where the removal cost could be quite high, but this would mean I wouldn't have to resort to cheating mode.
The other is to introduce two-way exit train depot, similar to how ship depot operate.

For the first one you could always use sandbox options or use a newgrf that disables transmitter spawning. For the second one I know there is a patch that extends current depot functions and is quite different from the current depot behaviour or the depot traversing behaviour in JGRPP. You may want to check it out -> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8480

But one thing I want to say is that you seemed to kept arguing about the transmitter problem while the solution is present. That is, if you're not going to use sandbox options or a NewGRF that overrides transmitters you'll have no solutions left, unless you modify the game yourself.

TheDarkGiganotosaur wrote: 02 Apr 2024 21:24

audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12There's no such thing as "cheating" in a non-competitive game, really...

Then explain why the game still stops the players from appearing in the high score screen after using the "Sandbox Options"? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me... competitive or not. If it's no longer considered "cheating", then don't punish the players by disabling the ability to appear in the high score screen when the game reaches the ending year. Or at least put a clear warning message to let the players know, especially newbies.

audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12the entire game is a sandbox

The game is a transport simulation--it's all about transporting anything anywhere for big bucks via road, rail, water, and air vehicles. Nothing more, nothing less.

audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12and half of the settings options could be considered "cheats"... we allow people to disable breakdowns and natural disasters, for example, and using many GRFs is basically cheating too. Along with using features that weren't even in original TTD

Let's just agree to disagree. OpenTTD is an extremely vast improvement over the original TTD. Yes, TTD was great during its time, and I did play it so many times via DOSBox... but TTD was insanely superseeded by OpenTTD--TTD has so many flaws and dire limitations whereas OpenTTD provides many fixes, vast enhancements, much lesser limitations, and makes it a thousand times better than TTD. Oh, and as for disasters, it can also be disabled in the old TTD (via "Difficult settings").

Sandbox (or cheats, as it was once called), I don't use them--they really spoil the fun, and should only be used for debugging purposes, but that's just my opinion.

Interpreting the NewGRF usage as cheating would be remotely unfair, don't you think? I mean, the original TTD has much fewer vehicles (especially monorail and maglev) and industries... and thanks to many highly talented people here who created many vehicle and industry sets, there's a reason to make OpenTTD much more enjoyable for many years to come. Oh, and not to mention other NewGRFs that can do many useful things... like giving Toyland landscape a nice "makeover", for example.

audigex wrote: 02 Apr 2024 09:12I agree that perhaps the high score table should be split into separate "Sandbox" and "Vanilla" tabs to be more reflective of this

I guess that would suffice as a solution to this issue.

1. Because that's how the game was historically coded (again, in 1994) and hasn't been changed yet. It probably will be once someone gets round to it
2. If the game is a transport simulation, why do you care about someone being able to delete an arbitrarily placed un-deletable object?
3. You say that OpenTTD is a different game with many fixes. THIS IS ONE OF THEM
4. Wait, so you think changing settings is cheating, but adding *entire new vehicle sets that are more powerful than the original ones* isn't? I don't understand your logic here - why is changing one setting cheating, but adding entire features that weren't in the original game is legit?

The regular settings menu can make bigger difficulty changes to the game than the cheat menu does - you can change settings to entirely disable breakdowns, whole categories of crashes, dramatically increase your income, and make wholesale changes to how local authorities work. Those things are functionally **much** bigger "cheats" than being able to delete a transmitter, but because they're in the settings menu you're fine with them? And to be clear, most of those did not exist in TTD, so they are OTTD changes just like this one

Frankly it just seems like you're getting arbitrarily attached to the word "cheat" in the old name for the menu, and therefore are ignoring the fact that LOADS of settings, newGRFs etc make more significant changes to the game than "You can delete transmitters" does. It feels like you're basing this solely on the fact the old menu name had the word cheat in it

@audigex, why did you (and wrongly) quote my post that is around 4 months old? You could've just replied much earlier. Also, and more importantly, I thought I've made myself perfectly clear in my last two posts (which you seem to have missed, so I'll try again and quote them below for your convenience)...

TheDarkGiganotosaur wrote: 03 Apr 2024 06:37 Let's not derail the thread with long debates--I was ONLY pointing out an issue with the "Sandbox Options" regarding ONLY the "players not showing up in the high score screen after its usage" part... and I already said all I needed to, so let's agree to disagree and be on our way.

But since you insist, let's continue, shall we?

audigex wrote: 03 Apr 2024 00:50The game is 30 years old, let's not act like every decision made in 1992-1993 stands today

Yes, and...? We're talking about OpenTTD, not TTD. Let's leave the past into the past and focus on the present and the future.

Also, I'm not acting anything nor I'm forcing anyone to do things my way... I'm just pointing things out, and then it'll be up for the developers to decide what to do about them, not me. If it's possible, cool... if not, fine. Please don't put words into my mouth.

audigex wrote: 03 Apr 2024 00:50Do you use GRFs? They were not part of the original game

Again, we're talking about OpenTTD, not TTD! As for whoever uses NewGRFs, it's up for the players to decide how they want to play the game, original or not. To each their own.

audigex wrote: 03 Apr 2024 00:50Things change. If you don't want to use the sandbox options then don't, but don't be judgemental of other people who want to enjoy the game differently to you

OpenTTD changes, not TTD. So once again, we're talking about OpenTTD, not TTD. I'm not judging nor I'd criticize everyone's gameplay preferences--people are totally free to play the game as they see fit... and like I said, to each their own. Again, don't put words into my mouth.

Lastly... and just to be clear, I'm all for benefiting EVERYONE. Whaddaya think I am? Selfish?

TheDarkGiganotosaur wrote: 03 Apr 2024 21:33

LaChupacabra wrote: 03 Apr 2024 20:12But, as you said so well, don't be judgemental of other people who want to enjoy the game differently to you.

Yes, but I kinda resent that such comment was directed at ME. Besides, the words "I humbly digress" and "that's just my opinion" have a LOGICAL meaning to them--they ain't there just for show, therefore I didn't come here making demands nor discriminating people's gameplay preferences nor telling everyone how the game should be played, et cetera... and I'm NOT here to offend anyone (if I did, I apologize). Heck, I never said such things! Always talking about TTD this and TTD that when I was simply and specifically referring to OpenTTD...

Although I'm a nice person and have shown exemplary conduct here, I won't tolerate false claims about me and ill-reasoned remarks. Just be nice...

LaChupacabra wrote: 03 Apr 2024 20:12Regarding the sandbox options window, changing the name was an illusory change and did not change the most important thing, i.e. how the game perceives these options and, as TheDarkGiganotosaur wrote, a player who uses these options is still ultimately treated as a cheater. The name change was made in good faith, but the result of it and several other changes is that the settings are now terribly inconsistent.

Yup, my thoughts exactly... and also the SOLE reason why I came to this thread in the first place--and especially because of the high score screen issue. No additional (and redundant) discussion was needed, but it all happened just because I simply and harmlessly spoke my mind...

LaChupacabra wrote: 03 Apr 2024 20:12Options that clearly should have been included in the cheat window/sandbox options, such as "Infinite money" or "permissive local authority", which allows you to demolish entire cities with impunity, are among the regular settings. Meanwhile, options that never gave any particular advantage, such as crossing tunnels, changing the maximum height of the map (isn't this some sort of fossil?), ability to demolish transmitters and unsupported enterprises (for a sufficiently high fee), are still there or have even been given the title of cheating, such as no plane crashes, although previously for years it was one of the most popular regular game options...

Why not ask audigex if any of those "Godlike" (sandboxing/cheating) features were in the "original game" as well?

On second thought, don't... it was only a rhetorical question. Sheesh...

LaChupacabra wrote: 03 Apr 2024 20:12I am not against the cheat window or the sandbox option, I don't want it removed, I believe that some options that significantly facilitate the gameplay should have the status of "forbidden". However, I believe that tidying up and a more logical division of these options are needed.

Quoted for truth.

On top of that, and despite this thread been either (and seemingly) abandoned and/or concluded for around 4 months, and now, right after WenSim brought this thread back from the dead (necroposting is bad, people--unless it's an important information/update), you decided to come back just to "verbally attack" me yet again! No offense, but that seems a little bit "troll-ish", don't you think? Anyway, I know you're the author of BRTrains (which I happen to like it, by the way) and OpenTTE, therefore you've developed NewGRFs for OpenTTD, so I'm confused as to whether you're against the whole NewGRF system or not. Do you hate OpenTTD and its wonderfully stunning features? Or do you just hate me? To be honest, I could care less if anyone likes me or not, but I'm not really fond of nor I'm into this "high school bickering" and "drama-llama" nonsense.

Regardless, and as for the rest, yeah, sure, whatever you say, "Mr. TTD-only-dude", more soap bubbles for me, so you win, and I lose. Happy now? Anyway, I'm not falling anymore for your baits, I've said all I needed to, and I'm not gonna explain everything to you again--the words (from my last two posts I quoted) speak for themselves, and each person is entitled to their own opinion (though you seem strongly against mine, which seems slightly compulsive), therefore I'm done arguing with you. Now, could we just please get this off-topicness over with and move on? Because I'm pretty sure you and I have much better things to do and so many problems to worry about.

I got an email notification about the thread for some reason (I guess a Tapatalk glitch). And I'm not sure why you're backseat moderating someone posting on a not-that-old thread? Let the moderators do that

I didn't verbally attack you, nothing I said was a personal insult. I'm not sure why you'd think I hate you just because I disagree with you? I don't believe anything I've said constitutes anything even close to resembling hatred or even a mild dislike, is there something I said which you've particularly interpreted as hatred that we can address?

I'm obviously not against newGRFs, it just seems like an odd position IMO to object to the sandbox menu being renamed, while not objecting to all the other advantage-giving features that have been added or changed in the last 20+ years (of which newGRFs were one prominent example). The London Underground 2024 Stock tram and train variants with 1100 passenger capacity gives a huge advantage over vanilla, for example. I just think we should look at OTTD as a holistic improvement (which may make things harder or easier depending on your settings), because it just seems like an illogical position to see some changes as acceptable and others as cheating

Lock request, recognisable type of thread from which we know nothing good arises in the world.

Not until I post this. It's always best to explain the reason before locking, right? And yes, I agree this thread should be locked for good.

audigex wrote: 19 Jul 2024 00:52I got an email notification about the thread for some reason (I guess a Tapatalk glitch). And I'm not sure why you're backseat moderating someone posting on a not-that-old thread? Let the moderators do that

Mistakes are made from time to time, and can be forgiven. However...

Backseat moderating? How typically cliché... and no, I am NOT doing any backseat moderating (and I really resent that) nor would I ever dream of becoming a moderator due to having a huge responsibility on one's shoulders, which I really don't like. Anyway, the reason for what I said in my previous post is because necroposting is very frowned on many forums (because normally if the last activity in the thread was more than a few months ago, you are likely replying to a topic that has already been concluded, of which the participants are no longer active). Sadly, some/most of the people seem to have this irritating habit of reviving old threads nowadays.

I hate necroposting because it's increasingly becoming pretty common these days on the Internet... specifically forums, applications, et cetera), but let's face the facts, shall we? How would you feel like if you had posted something (or released a really cool app, music, art, et cetera), and then... after waiting "ten thousand years", either nobody replies to you or someone finally replies to you? Wouldn't you feel offended and frustrated by that? See, when someone posts/releases something, the expectation is that somebody reacts and replies ASAP and not keep him/her hanging for ages... ignorance and lack of feedback/communications are much worse than me doing backseat moderating, as you put it. Don't you agree? After all, what affects one affects us all. Still, I fully understand that people (including me) have lives and problems in real-life and it's also fine if nobody wants to say anything, but I guess a few minutes spared for a few words would've helped, y'know? I kinda feel like ever since COVID-19 happened, more and more people are slowly becoming apathetic, lethargic, aloof, depressed, et cetera.

One advice, though... never rely on the crappy email notification thingies--it's always wise to first check the forum for any replies (by going to the "Quick links" and then "active topics"), check the last posts--especially their age, think before you reply, and then reply later. Plain and simple.

audigex wrote: 19 Jul 2024 00:52I didn't verbally attack you, nothing I said was a personal insult. I'm not sure why you'd think I hate you just because I disagree with you? I don't believe anything I've said constitutes anything even close to resembling hatred or even a mild dislike, is there something I said which you've particularly interpreted as hatred that we can address?

Well, now you did... by presuming that I'm doing backseat moderating when I truly wasn't. What? Is it wrong to advise others to refrain from doing something on the forum now? Regardless, I'll let this one slide.

Sometimes, the way things are worded can be offensive, no matter how harmless they may look/sound. It may have not been your intention to offend me, but I was a bit offended when you quoted the wrong post without checking my last two posts (which I excrutiatingly wasted my breath explaining everything) I pointed out earlier, and what offends me the most is when the people decide to reply to me after a very long time (such as months or years) of inactivity in a thread (which I thought our conversation here was already concluded). See what necroposting does (and especially without important information/update regarding the topic at hand)?

Sure, it may look/sound strange to you how others react to and/or feel about it, but let's not discuss about the complexity/limits of emotions, feelings, et cetera. And no, I hold no hatred for anyone because I like everyone, but I do NOT like being unfairly treated.

audigex wrote: 19 Jul 2024 00:52I'm obviously not against newGRFs, it just seems like an odd position IMO to object to the sandbox menu being renamed, while not objecting to all the other advantage-giving features that have been added or changed in the last 20+ years (of which newGRFs were one prominent example). The London Underground 2024 Stock tram and train variants with 1100 passenger capacity gives a huge advantage over vanilla, for example. I just think we should look at OTTD as a holistic improvement (which may make things harder or easier depending on your settings), because it just seems like an illogical position to see some changes as acceptable and others as cheating

The whole point... and my presence in this very thread here, is the following: To warn and make sure that everyone is completely aware that, if a player uses any of the sandboxing (which was once called cheating) options, he/she... gets... freaking... "punished" by NOT allowing them to appear in the high score screen when the game ends. Nothing more, nothing less... and everything else is irrelevant.

Because sometimes I hear kamnet saying that it's "fine and dandy" (and seems to encourage everyone) to use the sandboxing options, but he never warns about the consequences of using them! And that is the whole problem... not telling everyone about the said consequences (of the players not appearing in the high score screen when the game ends after using any of the sandboxing options).

But I guess I've made a terrible mistake (which led to this small conflict) and I should've kept my mouth shut in the first place and then let the feebleminded and clueless people to go ahead and use them without knowing the risks. It's better this way, isn't it? Not knowing about what could really happen when used? But sure, fine, go ahead and use the "cheats", gloat around, and brag about it all you like.

In my view, the original game lighthouses and transmission towers are immovable objects on the landscape that force you to make difficult decisions about how to route your networks. They add challenge. If you are able to remove them in any way at all, they lose all purpose and you may as well play with a mod that just makes them never appear at all. Building around the restrictions imposed by terrain, angry town councils, and competing companies, is part of what makes the game a game, and if you take away those parts you take away the challenge of the game.

On the other hand, if you want to be able to freely shape the world to your liking, that is not be challenged by terrain restrictions, be able to override any town council, and not have any competing companies, then in my mind you're playing sandbox. Then it's no longer playing the game for the challenge of the game, but using the game as a vehicle for your imagination instead, to shape the world to your own ideas.


However at the end of the day, the highscore table makes very little sense, given how much you can customize the game and still appear in it. You can set up a game with NewGRFs that give you basically-free vehicles, industries forever stuck at maximum production and maximum station ratings, and install a game script that makes town councils forever happy with anything you do, and have zero competitors, and you're still qualified for the highscore table. Is that fair?

jfs wrote: 19 Jul 2024 08:59However at the end of the day, the highscore table makes very little sense, given how much you can customize the game and still appear in it. You can set up a game with NewGRFs that give you basically-free vehicles, industries forever stuck at maximum production and maximum station ratings, and install a game script that makes town councils forever happy with anything you do, and have zero competitors, and you're still qualified for the highscore table. Is that fair?

Unlike what most people think, the highscore table is some sort of an achievement--once you end the game, your name and company name is gracefully recorded within and shows the total points you've acquired along the entire game... and it also states if you ended the game as a President or as a Tycoon, et cetera.

As for your question, you know what would be really fair? It's the people (and especially those who CARE about the highscore table) being properly warned about what is clearly described here which says:

Cheat Effects

If you use or used a cheat in a specific game session, your score will not be included in the High Scores list; in that session, still cheating can be good for debugging/sandboxing purposes. (It's easy to gain money in this game, even with harder NewGRFs, but sometimes you just want to test something out.)

It doesn't really matter if the "Cheats" word has been changed to "Sandbox" word, because despite the name change, it STILL retains the SAME EFFECT stated above. Therefore, don't you guys presume that using the sandboxing options is totally OK and safe when there's ALWAYS a catch.

That is all I wanted to say. Now, I have a day to fulfill and I'm already late due to this unnecessary and seemingly moot dispute. So do me all a favor and seriously drop this and move along... once and for all.

TheDarkGiganotosaur wrote: 19 Jul 2024 09:42

jfs wrote: 19 Jul 2024 08:59However at the end of the day, the highscore table makes very little sense, given how much you can customize the game and still appear in it. You can set up a game with NewGRFs that give you basically-free vehicles, industries forever stuck at maximum production and maximum station ratings, and install a game script that makes town councils forever happy with anything you do, and have zero competitors, and you're still qualified for the highscore table. Is that fair?

Unlike what most people think, the highscore table is some sort of an achievement--once you end the game, your name and company name is gracefully recorded within and shows the total points you've acquired along the entire game... and it also states if you ended the game as a President or as a Tycoon, et cetera.

Yes and I'm arguing that you can alter the game difficulty so much that getting the maximum company rating of 1000 is near-trivial, without those alterations disqualifying you from the highscore table.

If anything, the criteria for getting entered on the highscore table should be stricter, in my opinion.

jfs wrote: 19 Jul 2024 16:11 If anything, the criteria for getting entered on the highscore table should be stricter, in my opinion.

With all the "telemetry data" around now - is it known how many player actually play until the end to appear in the highscores?!?

Maybe my style of playing is too much "sandbox" but I think I never ever made it that far in at least 10 (real-world) years of playing, often get "stuck" in the 1970s or so