Russia-Ukraine Conflict

[YNM]

Ah, stupid ethnicism once again. If all ethnics in my country voted to have it's own country, there would have been thousands of them... But limiting some ethnics or descendants rights is really wrong, I mean why would you do that, knowing that they existed already ?

Israel ? Israel is a west-powered nation hungering for making a country... and annexing Palestine, no ?

[siu238X]

Ah, stupid ethnicism once again. If all ethnics in my country voted to have it's own country, there would have been thousands of them... But limiting some ethnics or descendants rights is really wrong, I mean why would you do that, knowing that they existed already ?

Israel ? Israel is a west-powered nation hungering for making a country... and annexing Palestine, no ?

I admit that I had deliberately evaded the legitimacy of Israel (or countries similar to it) in this debate. What's important is that, racist or not, people of different descendants often have highly different mindsets. If a country with A LOT OF (poor / oppressed / etc) people (as is the case of China and Arabia, and to a lesser extent Russia and Eastern Europe) starts flooding the neighbouring countries or regions, the destinations are almost always bound to overload, just as Hongkong, Taiwan and Europe are now.

As you have said, limiting some ethnics' or descendants' rights is really wrong. But countries like Estonia and Latvia have to find an alternative or the descendants' source countries' leaders (like Putin) would probably take advantage of the situation at the expense of the people in the destinations, and we all know it's not pretty.

[YNM]

You're aware that Indonesia is also loaded with chinese, right ? Apart from the New Order era that is fine for us...

[TinyMusic]

You're aware that Indonesia is also loaded with chinese, right ? Apart from the New Order era that is fine for us...

But the numbers aren't big enough for the PRC to come to Indonesia to take over. Plus, a lot of ethnic Chinese people live in Taiwan, and the PRC have never taken over that area as well.

Ah, stupid ethnicism once again. If all ethnics in my country voted to have it's own country, there would have been thousands of them...

But the thing is, these different ethnic groups never really have a 'country' of their own, and in the past they were just parts of different kingdoms. This means that there isn't any intention for these ethnic groups to break up. The entire existence of Indonesia is to bring these groups together into one country.

[YNM]

Parts of different kingdom ??? No mate, javanese has always taken control haha.

[siu238X]

You're aware that Indonesia is also loaded with chinese, right ? Apart from the New Order era that is fine for us...

Indonesia is actually populous and far away enough to undermine the effect. Countries closer to China than Indonesia, like Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam, Korea and Japan, clearly feel more pressure.

Besides, Indonesian Chinese seem "less aggressive" than Chinese in other South East Asian countries.
For the Thai case, many politicians from BOTH sides (not only the Shinawatras) are of Chinese descent;
While Malaysia had to expel Singapore to avoid their country literally become a Chinese majority (which, compounded with the leadership of Lee Kuan Yew, could have enabled the Chinese to assimilate the Malays instead)

[Voyager One]

Germany -> Austria 1938
Germany -> Sudetenlad 1938-1939
Turkey/Greece -> Cyprus 1974-1975
Argentina -> Falklands 1982
Serbia -> Bosnia & Croatia 1989-1990
Russia -> Crimea 2014
... just to mention a few.

All were started because of the "ethnic majority requesting to joing the motherland" and we all know how these ended. And now we have nuclear power(s) disputing a territory...

Nice future we're heading to.

[siu238X]

Germany -> Austria 1938
Germany -> Sudetenlad 1938-1939
Turkey/Greece -> Cyprus 1974-1975
Argentina -> Falklands 1982
Serbia -> Bosnia & Croatia 1989-1990
Russia -> Crimea 2014
... just to mention a few.

All were started because of the "ethnic majority requesting to joining the motherland" and we all know how these ended. And now we have nuclear power(s) disputing a territory...

Nice future we're heading to.

I'm afraid I have to oppose your inclusion of Serbia's case, because they WERE in the same country right up until the break in 1992. You can only say the scheme NEVER worked, but to the very least the thing we saw wasn't really invasion, just Serbia's futile attempt to stop the tide turning against them.

[Voyager One]

Sorry mate but I am Croatian and I know very well what is an invasion and occupation!

First of all, Yugoslavia broke up in 1990-1991 not 1992. Second, Croatia declared independence the same way former USSR republics did and republic borders were internationally recognized.

If you would be so kind to read the wiki here and here, you would see that Croatia declared independence and then was invaded by the former-YU army that was supporting a Serb minority rebellion against the newly formed government. 100.000-200.000 ex-YU soldiers on Croatian soil, 0 Croatian soldiers on Serbian soil - if this isn't an invasion then I really don't know what is one. Croatia fought a defensive war against an occupator the same way China did against Japan in WWII - or you're saying that China didn't?

Please drop this, I wasn't offended by your writings but you came very close... honestly speaking.

[siu238X]

Sorry mate but I am Croatian and I know very well what is an invasion and occupation!

First of all, Yugoslavia broke up in 1990-1991 not 1992. Second, Croatia declared independence the same way former USSR republics did and republic borders were internationally recognized.

If you would be so kind to read the wiki here and here, you would see that Croatia declared independence and then was invaded by the former-YU army that was supporting a Serb minority rebellion against the newly formed government. 100.000-200.000 ex-YU soldiers on Croatian soil, 0 Croatian soldiers on Serbian soil - if this isn't an invasion then I really don't know what is one. Croatia fought a defensive war against an occupator the same way China did against Japan in WWII - or you're saying that China didn't?

Please drop this, I wasn't offended by your writings but you came very close... honestly speaking.

Ah, sorry, I just let Bosnia came over my head. And doubly sorry that as an Eastern person I tend to have sympathy over nations that tried to keep "unity" for themselves but failed. Just my opinion and it doesn't change the fact that Serb authorities had committed very bad atrocities.

[Voyager One]

Bosnia

That was a complete mess. All fought against all and all claimed to be right. Still, it started with a YU-army invasion supporting Serbian separatists. After that, hell broke loose.

Serb authorities had committed very bad atrocities.

Let's be fair: all sides did very very bad things. Serbs, Croats, Bosnian muslims... they're all to blame, I can't say equally but they're, no, WE are all to blame. One innocent death is no better than a thousand.

tend to have sympathy over nations that tried to keep "unity" for themselves but failed.

There's nothing wrong with that but it would be a better world if people wouldn't try "keeping things together" by force but by good deeds.

Ah, sorry

Never mind my friend. I also reacted too emotionally.

[michael blunck]

Serb authorities had committed very bad atrocities.

Let's be fair: all sides did very very bad things. Serbs, Croats, Bosnian muslims... they're all to blame, I can't say equally but they're, no, WE are all to blame.

Don´t forget the Germans! E.g., see here (sorry for google´s notoriously bad translation). And this will get us on-topic again: simply because they did (and do) very similar things in Ukraine. History is never dead ...

regards
Michael

[YNM]

Silly thing. Maybe one day we will have a coutry which is fully consisted only of one race or ethnic groups once again... Somebody had pursued it really long ago (at least wrt my life).

[Voyager One]

Maybe one day we will have a coutry which is fully consisted only of one race or ethnic groups once again

Sorry my friend but this is exactly the manner of thinking that causes most wars and massacres and genocides. "One race" or "one ethnicity" or "one religion"... that's what Hitler preached and many many others similar to him. Nazi Reich, Stalin, apartheid, Darfur, Uganda, India/Pakistan/Bangladesh splitting, China/Tibet, former Yugoslavia, Nigeria, Ukraine... (the list could go on indefinitely)

What's wrong with having a country with many races and ethnic groups and religions and views that all consider and respect each other?

Please, I mean no disrespect to anyone with opposed views. I hate politics and all it brings, please noone gets me wrong in any way.

[YNM]

I was saying that, not to support it; but with the current state of what Russia has done, that might be a reality sometime...

[vear]

With regards to self-stating and all this vox populi advocacy, below are results of an independent poll conducted in May 2013.
Among all Crimean residents, only 23% would want to join Russian federation.


What is even more interesting, only 63% of ethnically Russian inhabitants considered themselves to be Russian! Still, when considering the whole population, ultimately Russian identity applies to just 40% of inhabitants.


Oh, and there's nothing new under the sun. Expulsion of Crimean Tatar, commenced by Stalin in 1944 and partially reversed after fall of the Soviet Union, is happening again. They are moved elsewhere "for the needs of the society", as the official propaganda states. Sweet...

[Purno]

What's wrong with having a country with many races and ethnic groups and religions and views that all consider and respect each other?

The "religions and views" part. How many wars have been fought because of "religions and views"? IMO religion does more bad than it does good, but that's just my view.

[Voyager One]

What's wrong with having a country with many races and ethnic groups and religions and views that all consider and respect each other?

The "religions and views" part. How many wars have been fought because of "religions and views"? IMO religion does more bad than it does good, but that's just my view.

Absolutely true, especially the last sentence.

[YNM]

Religions are bad when they try to make people adopt that particular religion and oppressing the others. Also, as choosing nothing is a form of choosing, having no religion is just the same as you choosed a religion, that is not to choose other religions and believes; just that most atheists never convict people to become atheist, too. Only in rare occassion they would.

[siu238X]

(Sorry that siu238X deleted your quote to save space)

I'm not saying it for the Putin administration, but given the situation during the revolution (even before Putin decided to reveal his fist), the survey you have posted are more or less void, because the situation has profoundly changed.

To be fair, it would have been better if the organisation working on that survey could have visited Crimea and do it again before Putin intervenes.